Growtac Equal Friction Brifters

[bmeryman]

Originally Posted by Turkle

Just spitballing here, theoretically with the right index plate you could have "indexed" shifting across like a 6-speed freewheel on an old restored bike?

That's my interpretation! Since the index plate looks somewhat easily replaceable, I imagine with some math you could work out the dimensions to index to any system you want.

I like that all the pieces are removable too if you want to run SS or just have a lighter 1x setup with no internals in the left shifter.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by bmeryman

It looks like you can add index plates in the location indicated below to index in your preferred ratio to match the RD. No junction box needed. Just swap the index plates if you're switching between RD manufacturers.

The junction box would only be needed if both brifters operated the same derailleur (i.e. Paddle Mode).

From my reading of the description, these shifters aren't truly indexed the way we've become accustomed to indexed shifting. From the description:

The index plate is a part that can add an indexing function (click feeling) to the EQUAL Control Lever, which is a friction type (stepless type). By installing this part, it is possible to tell your finger how many gear shifts have been made, thus making shifting operation easier.

I interpret this to mean that the indexing plate merely adds tactile feedback to the user as to the relative position of the cable winding spool, but the shifter is still primarily a friction shifter, and it is up to the user to position the derailleur correctly for each sprocket.

[mstateglfr]

This seems like really cool creativity.
It also seems like an incredibly niche product.
Oh, and based on the cost of their brakes, I imagine these things will be something goofy like $500.


I genuinely hope it succeeds. Its really neat.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

The junction box would only be needed if both brifters operated the same derailleur (i.e. Paddle Mode).

From my reading of the description, these shifters aren't truly indexed the way we've become accustomed to indexed shifting. From the description:



I interpret this to mean that the indexing plate merely adds tactile feedback to the user as to the relative position of the cable winding spool, but the shifter is still primarily a friction shifter, and it is up to the user to position the derailleur correctly for each sprocket.

Mark, if that's true, why would they need different indexing plates? You're thinking these may be like the old Suntour barcons, which had a ratchet? It's confusing to me how indexed but still friction works!

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I interpret this to mean that the indexing plate merely adds tactile feedback to the user as to the relative position of the cable winding spool, but the shifter is still primarily a friction shifter, and it is up to the user to position the derailleur correctly for each sprocket.

The wording on Equal's part is super confusing, if this isnt actually indexed. They specifically say the indexing function will tell your finger how many gear shifts have been made.
They call it an indexing function and tie it each click to a different shift(cog).

That seems pretty indexed to me. But yes I could see your interpretation of what Equal states as an accurate interpretation.

[bmeryman]

I can certainly read that interpretation, Mark, and that does make sense given that even with the index plate it is not a ratchet type index system that we're used to seeing.

So it sounds like it will always be friction based, but will have 'indentations' to indicate position. The Suntour reference is a good callout and that's what I imagine it would feel like - the one that you could rotate the adjuster between friction or index settings.

I'll be really curious to get my hands on these because that may be good enough to feel satisfying.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by NHAero

Mark, if that's true, why would they need different indexing plates? You're thinking these may be like the old Suntour barcons, which had a ratchet? It's confusing to me how indexed but still friction works!

No, not quite like the Suntour Power Ratchet shifters. The Suntour Power Ratchet shifters had a one-way ratchet inside the friction mechanism, so that that they moved under friction in one direction, but ratchetted in the other direction. The lever and the cable spool were a single rigid unit. The Growtac EQUAL shifters appear to have one-way ratches between the paddles/buttons and the friction mechanism, and the cable spool and the friction mechanism are rigidly attached together.

Most friction shifters (including the Suntour Power Ratchet levers) have non-ratchetting (non-return-to-center) levers. You can shift to a particular gear by moving to the lever to specific position. In contrast, the EQUAL shifter's levers have ratcheting return to center mechanism, so the levers return to the same position regardless of the position of the derailleur. This can make it difficult to figure out how far to push the lever to complete a shift, particularly for multi-sprocket shifts. So perhaps the purpose of the "index" disk is to provide some tactile feedback as to the position of the cable spool, since the lever is ratcheted to the cable spool.

Regular friction shifting levers can give a lot of tactile information that is lost with modern return-to-center brifter levers. In the old days of downtube shifting, if I wanted to know what gear you were in without looking at the derailleurs, you'd just reach down and touch the lever(s). The angle of the lever told you exactly what gear(s) you were in. In the days of friction shifting, riders would memorize the lever position of each gear, so shifting was just a matter of moving the lever to the position of the next gear. With modern return-to-center brifter levers, you can't tell what gear you are in by the lever positions, and it would be hard to gauge how far to move the levers without a distinct "click" to tell you when to stop moving the lever.

[benb]

Super neat idea.

I do wonder if this mechanism gives up some precision though.

It reminds me of the early Shimano indexed stuff for flat bar/MTB.

There were some shifters that operated in either indexed or friction mode. They tended to lose their indexing marbles, then you would flip a lever on the shifter and you could switch it to friction mode. I remember doing that a lot, but at the time I didn't know how to tune a derailleur.

So the question is.. somewhere along the way in the 1990s Shimano/SRAM/Campy got indexing working exceptionally well and these split mode features disappeared. I am curious whether the disappearance was part of a different mechanism and that mechanism eliminated the ability to switch in exchange for precision, or whether they just didn't need it anymore.

Anyway that's hazy memory from being a kid too. My bike was friction, and it might not have been Shimano, it might have been Suntour, my parents had the more expensive bikes with selectable indexing. I do remember that I had that muscle memory where I could just about instantly shift to any gear by remembering where the lever had to go like Mark is saying. That was like late 80s I think.

[monkeybanana86]

This is sweet. Thumb paddle yay

[litcrazy]

That indexing plate reminds me of indexed bar end shifters. Maybe that’s the analog. Less push button single shifts and more clear steps like shimano indexed bar end shifters (which feel very different from suntour ratcheted bar ends).
I imagine others who have more thoroughly dissected their bar ends can speak to this.
I believe microshift lets users change plates on their thumb shifters in a similar manner

[jtakeda]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

This seems like really cool creativity.
It also seems like an incredibly niche product.
Oh, and based on the cost of their brakes, I imagine these things will be something goofy like $500.


I genuinely hope it succeeds. Its really neat.

At current exchange rate it’s $450 with all the fixings. $400 or so without

[jimcav]

at one point i rode a tri bike with return-to-center indexed bar end shifters and I hated it because I couldn't easily tell my gear. I'm sure if I rode it enough I'd have developed a feel for what gear I was in, but I didn't like it.

Originally Posted by Mark McM

No, not quite like the Suntour Power Ratchet shifters. The Suntour Power Ratchet shifters had a one-way ratchet inside the friction mechanism, so that that they moved under friction in one direction, but ratchetted in the other direction. The lever and the cable spool were a single rigid unit. The Growtac EQUAL shifters appear to have one-way ratches between the paddles/buttons and the friction mechanism, and the cable spool and the friction mechanism are rigidly attached together.

Most friction shifters (including the Suntour Power Ratchet levers) have non-ratchetting (non-return-to-center) levers. You can shift to a particular gear by moving to the lever to specific position. In contrast, the EQUAL shifter's levers have ratcheting return to center mechanism, so the levers return to the same position regardless of the position of the derailleur. This can make it difficult to figure out how far to push the lever to complete a shift, particularly for multi-sprocket shifts. So perhaps the purpose of the "index" disk is to provide some tactile feedback as to the position of the cable spool, since the lever is ratcheted to the cable spool.

Regular friction shifting levers can give a lot of tactile information that is lost with modern return-to-center brifter levers. In the old days of downtube shifting, if I wanted to know what gear you were in without looking at the derailleurs, you'd just reach down and touch the lever(s). The angle of the lever told you exactly what gear(s) you were in. In the days of friction shifting, riders would memorize the lever position of each gear, so shifting was just a matter of moving the lever to the position of the next gear. With modern return-to-center brifter levers, you can't tell what gear you are in by the lever positions, and it would be hard to gauge how far to move the levers without a distinct "click" to tell you when to stop moving the lever.

[Gwerziou]

I wonder if, with the two cables coming out of one shifter, you could hook it up to a Rene Herse Nivex derailleur for the ultimate in idiosyncratic drivetrains.

[thirdgenbird]

They have my attention.

I also don’t think there is a junction box.
-You have one cable going from shifter A to the derailleur
-You have one cable going from shifter B to shifter A

You effectively “remote mount” the release lever to the other side of the bars with a cable. It appears the installed an inline cable adjuster to take up the slack between levers.

[Nomadmax]

So it does what Campag 10 speed Ergo shifters do? My hearing isn't the best, but I heard a lot of "yagadga yagadga" coming from the RD (similar to the sound of someone behind you in a paceline that's about to pop). They made a video of it, so presumably that's the best case performance?