Jan Heine on wide tires for the road

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

No prize money means no one will think twice about it. But, give a free hat to the winner and ...

The spirit of gravel doesn’t need prize money; just like it does not need hydration.

[AngryScientist]

And fittingly I rang in page 18

[marciero]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

The French fell out of demi-balloon tires as the roads got better. Whenever Heine visited with the participants from prior CdM, or long-term Herse owners, almost inevitably they had kept up with times and were riding carbon fiber and lightweight narrow tires...

This leaves out quite a bit, and does not tell the whole story. A lot of things happened concurrent with the "the roads got better", including socioeconomic and marketing factors. The country dug itself out of the ravages of WWII and rebuilt. Many riders from that original CdM era did not even own cars, and used bicycles for transportation and work as well as recreation. By the 50's more people could afford cars to drive on those nice new roads. Many people cycled less, an many left the sport. Fewer young people were drawn to a sport they associated with their depression era parents, and was to an extent stigmatized as something poor people did. Those who did cycle were now a new population of riders effected by the same marketing pressures as elsewhere, and perhaps more so in France, where everything is The Tour. There are a lot of factors in the rise and dominance of skinny 700c-worldwide in fact. Skinny tires being not as harsh on smooth roads is only part of it.

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

The spirit of gravel doesn’t need prize money; just like it does not need hydration.

Who needs water bottles? You can stop to drink from a mountain spring, like Jobst Brandt.

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by David in Maine

Came across this quote in a great writeup of the Concourse des Machines on the Radavist. Olivier is a builder in the legendary French shop Alex Singer. I found it funny considering the Francophile nature of JH.

Olivier contorted his features in a toss up between outright rage and confusion: “Gravel is just marketing. Big companies making marketing! Like in the 80’s with mountain bikes. No one needs that! First they make the frames stiffer and stiffer, so no one wants to ride them because they’re uncomfortable, so you need big tyres which are slow. The forks don’t flex properly because they’re too stiff. I’ve had my bike for over 20 years, and I can say now it’s perfect. Some parts have changed but the frame is the same and it’s perfect. I can do anything I need on it.”

The whole report is well worth the read! https://theradavist.com/2022-concour...race-and-show/

David

Thank for the link. I really enjoyed reading that.

I couldn’t spend any time with Olivier, without at least acknowledging the superhuman luft with which he wears his cycling caps. I’ve seen him riding with them, and they don’t fall off. I’ve seen images of lutfy caps from all the great cyclists of the 70’s, but I’ve never encountered anyone who can actually pull the luft off in modern times like Olivier. He gave me a hat and delicately positioned it on my head so that I could understand the subtle difference between fashionably lutfy and over ambitious. I have to say that having felt it, it’s a fine balance, like leaning back on the back legs of a chair. Another factor is the cap itself, which seemed to be both slightly smaller and also more elastic than any I’ve worn before. Having seen behind the magician’s curtain I feel more comfortable with the shape of my tiny head.

[David in Maine]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

Thank for the link. I really enjoyed reading that.

You're welcome--great writing and photography!

David

[merckx]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

He's not wrong.



There are some impressively ugly bikes elsewhere in the report, CdM is an odd event.

The appeal for a bicycle like this Singer is that they are so damn comfortable to ride for long distances. They require infrequent maintenance, and when they do need some attention, the solutions are simple. I won't argue that this Singer is not heavy by today's benchmarks, but machine weight has become a low priority for me. For years I chased the bleeding edge in bicycle technology until the point when they became less reliable, less comfortable, or less convenient. Even 10 years ago I never imagined that I would settle on the bicycles that I now use.

[martl]

[QUOTE=RWL2222;3133123]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

That's a kind of mesmerizing image--captures the magic and exuberance of riding. But just how that jump works?--you can't really tell by watching, only by doing.

one can clearly see the massive compliance of the frame here

[NHAero]

[QUOTE=martl;3133859]

Originally Posted by RWL2222

one can clearly see the massive compliance of the frame here

I wish we could see it larger and be able to stop action it. Looks to me as though way more deflection in the fork. But overall, aren't we speaking about much smaller impacts than this one, occurring continually as we ride less than perfect roads?

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by NHAero

I wish we could see it larger and be able to stop action it. Looks to me as though way more deflection in the fork. But overall, aren't we speaking about much smaller impacts than this one, occurring continually as we ride less than perfect roads?

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5P5RHodRrw

Don't forget, you can use the <> keys to move forward/backward one frame at a time. Watch the forward third of the front triangle at 0.25x, it's wild.

[Turkle]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

Here you go: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B5P5RHodRrw

Don't forget, you can use the <> keys to move forward/backward one frame at a time. Watch the forward third of the front triangle at 0.25x, it's wild.

That is actually extremely instructive. I would have never imagined that there would be that much visible flex!

Actually makes me want to pull the trigger on that steel frame/fork I've been dreaming of... Too bad I have to buy a house first...

[theboucher]

Apologies to anyone who was hoping this one would die off for good - but I have some thoughts:

1. As we all know, Jan has long been advocating for wider tires, in nearly all applications. His riding and writing via BQ have helped him to make Compass/RH tires a success, but this has also helped usher in more and better tire options from other companies as well. 10 or 15 years ago, fat tires were pretty bad across the board. Now there are options.

2. Jan's science does not appear to be impressive. He does statistical analyses about data that doesn't seem to be collected as precisely as it should. Unless there is more rigorous methodology and more transparency into how they're timing tests and measuring very small differences, these analyses are sort of worthless. I have yet to see a similar test repeated by anyone else, but I would like to. And I don't think much of any lab tests either - a roller drum is not a road.

3. I think what is missing from this conversation, and what Jan could do a better job articulating in his writing is the nuance behind tire choice. For a 400km+ brevet, a wider tire *can be* faster than a narrower one as the average speed is relatively low and comfort and reduced fatigue are more critical than just rolling resistance. For professional riders, who put out unfathomable wattages on mostly smooth roads, this is not the case.

Most of us fall somewhere between these two extreme use cases, and thus our tire needs are going to fall somewhere in the middle.

4. Many of the actual benefits of supple, wide tires are NOT part of the rolling resistance/aerodynamics discussion that this conversation invariably devolves into. Objectively, soft and wide tires flat less, grip better, and transmit less road noise through the frame to the rider. Whether or not they are faster is a different conversation.

5. The question of how a rider harmonizes with a bicycle and tires based on their morphology, physiology and power output is a very interesting discussion. Jan calls it planing and it's easy to make fun of. But, there's something to it - the problem is that it's basically impossible to measure and thus is easily reduced to pseudoscience. But if you talk to bike designers who have worked with someone like Mark Cavendish - by all metrics an expert on how bicycles ride - they say similar things about harmonizing with flex characteristics of a frame and the like. This is something Jan should be credited with, as not the only voice, but one of the voices discussing what to make of this puzzle.

6. Maybe tires don't matter that much?

[merckx]

Originally Posted by theboucher

Apologies to anyone who was hoping this one would die off for good - but I have some thoughts:

1. As we all know, Jan has long been advocating for wider tires, in nearly all applications. His riding and writing via BQ have helped him to make Compass/RH tires a success, but this has also helped usher in more and better tire options from other companies as well. 10 or 15 years ago, fat tires were pretty bad across the board. Now there are options.

2. Jan's science does not appear to be impressive. He does statistical analyses about data that doesn't seem to be collected as precisely as it should. Unless there is more rigorous methodology and more transparency into how they're timing tests and measuring very small differences, these analyses are sort of worthless. I have yet to see a similar test repeated by anyone else, but I would like to. And I don't think much of any lab tests either - a roller drum is not a road.

3. I think what is missing from this conversation, and what Jan could do a better job articulating in his writing is the nuance behind tire choice. For a 400km+ brevet, a wider tire *can be* faster than a narrower one as the average speed is relatively low and comfort and reduced fatigue are more critical than just rolling resistance. For professional riders, who put out unfathomable wattages on mostly smooth roads, this is not the case.

Most of us fall somewhere between these two extreme use cases, and thus our tire needs are going to fall somewhere in the middle.

4. Many of the actual benefits of supple, wide tires are NOT part of the rolling resistance/aerodynamics discussion that this conversation invariably devolves into. Objectively, soft and wide tires flat less, grip better, and transmit less road noise through the frame to the rider. Whether or not they are faster is a different conversation.

5. The question of how a rider harmonizes with a bicycle and tires based on their morphology, physiology and power output is a very interesting discussion. Jan calls it planing and it's easy to make fun of. But, there's something to it - the problem is that it's basically impossible to measure and thus is easily reduced to pseudoscience. But if you talk to bike designers who have worked with someone like Mark Cavendish - by all metrics an expert on how bicycles ride - they say similar things about harmonizing with flex characteristics of a frame and the like. This is something Jan should be credited with, as not the only voice, but one of the voices discussing what to make of this puzzle.

6. Maybe tires don't matter that much?

This is well articulated, and I cannot disagree with anything you have written.

Regarding tire size, I think that wide tires and narrower tires have their place. When I do long distance events on decent roads, I have settled on 28mm tires. They test the fastest for me. When I am fatigued from riding too many miles, or do distance events on poorly surfaced roads, 38mm tires test fastest for me. I don't think we can say that there is one tire width that is optimal for all cycling events. Just be smart about your tire choice. We are fortunate that we have may options that are available to us.

[merckx]

Also, look at the serenity and happiness on Jobst's face in the picture a few threads up. He is riding a 25.4/28.6 steel frame in a size 64+?, friction shifting, maybe a 24 on the back, toe clips and 23mm tires. The bicycle is a simple machine. Don't allow technology to rob your happiness. Discussions about optimal tire size are mostly for entertainment. It is easy to figure this stuff out if you simply ride your bicycle.

[owly]

Originally Posted by Turkle

...Actually makes me want to pull the trigger on that steel frame/fork I've been dreaming of... Too bad I have to buy a house first...

Half a house https://crustbikes.com/collections/f...ucts/malocchio