Best Titanium Road Bike

[weisan]

Originally Posted by joosttx

By focusing on a lower price point I think their quality (ride quality) has suffered compared to the high-end bikes.

joosttx pal, if I may, present a dissenting viewpoint.

one of the curse and the blessing of having a N+1 addiction is you run through a lot of bikes and get to savor the good and the bad. I had such a wide ranging diverse experience in riding so many bikes that it comes a point where I don't even pay much attention to the lettering on the downtube or the badge on the front tube...because quite frankly they mean very little when it comes to ride quality.

Yes, higher price point = potentially better ride, better quality....BUT NOT ALWAYS

Yes, cheaper price point = potentially lower quality, don't ride so well....BUT NOT ALWAYS

There are exceptions to the rule. And a lot of it has to do with brand marketing.

I have "cheap" bikes that ride awesome and rival the very best and I have "expensive" bikes that ride like $hit or just "meh". I know I know..people gonna chime in with things like maybe not a good fit, geometry, miscommunication between the rider and the fitter or framebuilder etc etc....you know what, some days, we just have to call a spade a spade and not embellish the truth.

And it occurs more often than we like to admit....because again, quite frankly, we spent all that money ...like the Emperor, we would never want to admit that we are stupid and can't see the custom beautiful elegant royal gown that those two miracle tailors had made. But the truth is...sometimes, it just didn't pan out, even with all the investments made. We were left naked.

Sad but true.

My point is: It's not a guarantee.

[Tony T]

Originally Posted by froze

Right, so you're perfectly ok for a person who was in a taxpayer subsidized rent control project while in college making $30,000 a year? Fine, so am I! But now that person has graduated and has a $100,000 a year job and can afford to pay regular rent instead of having taxpayers continue to subsidize their rent and your ok with that? I'm not ok with that. And when would they be ready to move, in 3 months? Ok I'm fine with that, that give them time to find a place. What about 5 years, so they can buy a Porsche, a Baum, a 65" big screen TV, a jetski, travel around the world? no I'm not ok with that, that's taking advantage of taxpayers.

When did this morph into subsidized housing?
Rent Control is not subsidized housing.
Subsidized housing is to assist low income renters.
Rent control is to prevent landlords from dramatically increasing rent and is not subsidized by the state or federal gov't.
GIYF

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by weisan

joosttx pal, if I may, present a dissenting viewpoint.

one of the curse and the blessing of having a N+1 addiction is you run through a lot of bikes and get to savor the good and the bad. I had such a wide ranging diverse experience in riding so many bikes that it comes a point where I don't even pay much attention to the lettering on the downtube or the badge on the front tube...because quite frankly they mean very little when it comes to ride quality.

Yes, higher price point = potentially better ride, better quality....BUT NOT ALWAYS

Yes, cheaper price point = potentially lower quality, don't ride so well....BUT NOT ALWAYS

There are exceptions to the rule. And a lot of it has to do with brand marketing.

I have "cheap" bikes that ride awesome and rival the very best and I have "expensive" bikes that ride like $hit or just "meh". I know I know..people gonna chime in with things like maybe not a good fit, geometry, miscommunication between the rider and the fitter or framebuilder etc etc....you know what, some days, we just have to call a spade a spade and not embellish the truth.

And it occurs more often than we like to admit....because again, quite frankly, we spent all that money ...like the Emperor, we would never want to admit that we are stupid and can't see the custom beautiful elegant royal gown that those two miracle tailors had made. But the truth is...sometimes, it just didn't pan out, even with all the investments made. We were left naked.

Sad but true.

My point is: It's not a guarantee.

I am just saying that the lynesky i rode was a friends was not that good of a ride compared to other titanium bikes I have owned. I agree it is not a guarantee more expensive bikes are better and that ownership clouds judgement but My intent was to buy a lynesky and I was disappointed. IMO

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by weisan

joosttx pal, if I may, present a dissenting viewpoint.

one of the curse and the blessing of having a N+1 addiction is you run through a lot of bikes and get to savor the good and the bad. I had such a wide ranging diverse experience in riding so many bikes that it comes a point where I don't even pay much attention to the lettering on the downtube or the badge on the front tube...because quite frankly they mean very little when it comes to ride quality.

Yes, higher price point = potentially better ride, better quality....BUT NOT ALWAYS

Yes, cheaper price point = potentially lower quality, don't ride so well....BUT NOT ALWAYS

There are exceptions to the rule. And a lot of it has to do with brand marketing.

I have "cheap" bikes that ride awesome and rival the very best and I have "expensive" bikes that ride like $hit or just "meh". I know I know..people gonna chime in with things like maybe not a good fit, geometry, miscommunication between the rider and the fitter or framebuilder etc etc....you know what, some days, we just have to call a spade a spade and not embellish the truth.

And it occurs more often than we like to admit....because again, quite frankly, we spent all that money ...like the Emperor, we would never want to admit that we are stupid and can't see the custom beautiful elegant royal gown that those two miracle tailors had made. But the truth is...sometimes, it just didn't pan out, even with all the investments made. We were left naked.

Sad but true.

My point is: It's not a guarantee.

This is a very intelligent and thoughtful response. Kind of gets to the heart of the matter. It's similar to going to the movies. There's a certain "willing suspension of disbelief" you have to buy into. How many of us, with logos and head badges removed, could tell a $1,000 frame from a $4,000 frame, assuming the geo was correct? I think that's an interesting question.

[froze]

Originally Posted by joosttx

I would appreciate you correcting my spelling and grammar too. I suck at that stuff.

My personal experience is that the Lynskey bike I rode did not ride as well as the two titanium bikes I have owned. The titanium bikes being an IF and the other being a Mosaic. Lynskey has carved a price point and niche different from the higher end ti bike makers. By focusing on a lower price point I think their quality (ride quality) has suffered compared to the high-end bikes. The Lynskey family appear to be smart bike business people because they have been able to make titanium bikes at a larger scale to meet demand at a lower price. Nothing wrong with that. If I were to invest in a titanium bike company I would probably lend to the Lynskey model and not the Baum model. But I would love to own and ride a Baum. I am sorry I came across so negative towards Lynskey, they just dont cut the mustard compared to bike brands twice the price of theirs

Look, Mr Grant of Rivendell said it best, that his Rivendell bike, which is the most expensive bike they sell, was only maybe 5% better than their cheapest bike they sell, and to that end I agree. I think you can spend a lot of money for a bike, pay several thousands more and only get maybe a 5% better bike out of the deal. So I doubt, though admittedly I never rode a Baum but I did ride a TI Serotta, but I doubt that the ride is more than 5% better. In fact I test rode my friends TI Serotta a lot before I bought my Lynskey and his was a bit better riding in comfort, but why was that? first off he had those swayed seat stays which flex a bit more; secondly he had a more noodly CF fork then my Enve 2.0 is; thirdly he had non aero wheels that my bike has. So his bike did ride a bit more comfortable, but the one thing he and I (he has ridden my bike several times since I got it) did notice was that my bike handled better, it felt more sure footed which we think may be tied into the fork. The reason we think it's tied into the fork is because another friend that I have has the Motobecane TI bike, at one time this was a fantastic deal on a ti bike but I think they raised their prices too high now. Anyway his bike also was not very sure footed like mine was so he actually replaced his generic fork with a Envy 2.0 and now his bike handles really nicely; the Serotta guy won't get a new fork.

There is no way for me to ride a Baum bike since I've never even seen one EVER, even when I lived in Southern California the mecca for bike riding I've never seen one, in fact most high end TI bikes are rarely seen if ever. I've never seen a Van Nicholas, Gradient, Alchemy, IF, Kinesis, Mosaic, Seven, Sabbath, Enigma, and I'm probably missing some I've never heard of, nor ever ran into a dealer that carried any of those brands. I have seen a couple of rare Moots in California but not in Indiana where I now live, in fact where I live I haven't seen any other Lynskeys, Serottas or even the Motobecanes other then the ones my two friends have, and those are the only TI bikes I've seen here and I live in a city of about 250,000. The only reason the Serotta is here is because at one time an LBS in town carried that line of bikes, but they must not have been huge sellers since the Serottas I've seen here has been that one TI bike and a steel bike I ran into once. My Lynskey and the other guys Motobecane were mail order bikes, no dealer for either is near me; at the time I got my Lynskey I would had to drive to Chattanooga Tennessee to test ride one which I wasn't going to do, so I bought it having never rode it which was the first time I've ever bought a bike like that, but it worked out really well, it's the most comfortable bike I own and very responsive, and all I got was their cheapest model at the time called the Peloton.

I like the Lynskey so much I was considering selling all my steel bikes except for one and buy a TI touring bike from Lynskey, but since I've gone on several touring trips I've decided against it only because they use a carbon fork and there is no provision on the fork for extra water bottle holders, and having enough water on you is important when touring. So now I'm looking at steel touring bikes that have bottle cage mounts on the forks.

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

This is a very intelligent and thoughtful response. Kind of gets to the heart of the matter. It's similar to going to the movies. There's a certain "willing suspension of disbelief" you have to buy into. How many of us, with logos and head badges removed, could tell a $1,000 frame from a $4,000 frame, assuming the geo was correct? I think that's an interesting question.

Most for most bikes.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by sfo1

Should have multi quoted, but these guys are good riders, most definitely not great. No palmares.

Just livin’ the life. $1k kit, $13k bike, stop for $8 cappuccino to be seen. They probably bag a few soccer moms along the way too.

No hating, just admiring.

I think you might've stumbled into their new ad campaign:
"Baum ... Soccer Moms ❤️ Us"

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by sfo1

So I was looking at a ti road disc frame with requirements being light, very stiff (front end-44mm and bb), butted, custom geo and a under $4k.

After going through the thread there was 333fab. Must be others. Suggestion?

Check out Alliance. I have a MTB made by Erik Rolf that I used in a road fondo. (About 60 miles) The bike clocked in at 20 lbs with a stiff fork. Rode like a dream and super comfortable. Only problem was going downhill with a 30t ...

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by froze

Look, Mr Grant of Rivendell said it best, that his Rivendell bike, which is the most expensive bike they sell, was only maybe 5% better than their cheapest bike they sell, and to that end I agree. I think you can spend a lot of money for a bike, pay several thousands more and only get maybe a 5% better bike out of the deal. So I doubt, though admittedly I never rode a Baum but I did ride a TI Serotta, but I doubt that the ride is more than 5% better. In fact I test rode my friends TI Serotta a lot before I bought my Lynskey and his was a bit better riding in comfort, but why was that? first off he had those swayed seat stays which flex a bit more; secondly he had a more noodly CF fork then my Enve 2.0 is; thirdly he had non aero wheels that my bike has. So his bike did ride a bit more comfortable, but the one thing he and I (he has ridden my bike several times since I got it) did notice was that my bike handled better, it felt more sure footed which we think may be tied into the fork. The reason we think it's tied into the fork is because another friend that I have has the Motobecane TI bike, at one time this was a fantastic deal on a ti bike but I think they raised their prices too high now. Anyway his bike also was not very sure footed like mine was so he actually replaced his generic fork with a Envy 2.0 and now his bike handles really nicely; the Serotta guy won't get a new fork.

There is no way for me to ride a Baum bike since I've never even seen one EVER, even when I lived in Southern California the mecca for bike riding I've never seen one, in fact most high end TI bikes are rarely seen if ever. I've never seen a Van Nicholas, Gradient, Alchemy, IF, Kinesis, Mosaic, Seven, Sabbath, Enigma, and I'm probably missing some I've never heard of, nor ever ran into a dealer that carried any of those brands. I have seen a couple of rare Moots in California but not in Indiana where I now live, in fact where I live I haven't seen any other Lynskeys, Serottas or even the Motobecanes other then the ones my two friends have, and those are the only TI bikes I've seen here and I live in a city of about 250,000. The only reason the Serotta is here is because at one time an LBS in town carried that line of bikes, but they must not have been huge sellers since the Serottas I've seen here has been that one TI bike and a steel bike I ran into once. My Lynskey and the other guys Motobecane were mail order bikes, no dealer for either is near me; at the time I got my Lynskey I would had to drive to Chattanooga Tennessee to test ride one which I wasn't going to do, so I bought it having never rode it which was the first time I've ever bought a bike like that, but it worked out really well, it's the most comfortable bike I own and very responsive, and all I got was their cheapest model at the time called the Peloton.

I like the Lynskey so much I was considering selling all my steel bikes except for one and buy a TI touring bike from Lynskey, but since I've gone on several touring trips I've decided against it only because they use a carbon fork and there is no provision on the fork for extra water bottle holders, and having enough water on you is important when touring. So now I'm looking at steel touring bikes that have bottle cage mounts on the forks.

I am glad you like your lynskey. I did not like the lynskey compared to the titanium bikes I have owned. I agree there are examples of cheaper bikes being as good as more expensive bikes. Those examples exist and there are enough examples that we all have them. But the lynskey I rode rode poorly compared to the titanium bikes I have owned.

[froze]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

This is a very intelligent and thoughtful response. Kind of gets to the heart of the matter. It's similar to going to the movies. There's a certain "willing suspension of disbelief" you have to buy into. How many of us, with logos and head badges removed, could tell a $1,000 frame from a $4,000 frame, assuming the geo was correct? I think that's an interesting question.

There was test done some years back where a experiment came up in the discussion between two writers for a bicycle article, so they contacted a custom frame builder who agreed to do the experiment. The builder made two identical steel bikes, one using a basic cromoly tubeset and the other a high end Columbus, made the two frames and forks identical in every respect, and both were using the same saddle, wheels, tires, etc, the bike were painted the same color but the frame decals were left off so no one would know if they were riding the cheaper one or the better one, only the builder knew which was which. They both rode the bikes several times trading back and forth, they then got several other people involved riding them, and the result of which one was the higher end bike resulted in a tie! No one could tell for certain if the bike they were riding on was the higher end steel frame or the lower end one.

I think with TI bikes there is a lot more going on than lugged steel. Tube diameters and where they are used is a big issue whereas in the steel test they were all the same diameter due to being lugged. Also you can have straight or swayed seat stays, straight or S shaped chain stays, larger tubing in one area, different shaped tubing, different manufactures of forks, etc; the differences today is more varied then back in the steel days, the same is true with CF and AL bikes.

I could tell subtle differences from riding my TI bike vs a Serotta and a Motobecane TI bikes as I mentioned in another post, but the Moto was about $900 cheaper than my Lynskey and the Serotta was about $3,000 more than my bike, and I doubt, like Mr Grant said, that there is more than a 5% difference between the three. Would that hold true between the lowest end Moto vs a Baum? I have no idea, it would be interesting if one were to strip off all decals or cover the decals of both bikes and do a ride off to see, but with the price of two bikes and getting the two together to do that would be highly improbable.

Also keep in mind too, that Baum bikes are custom built, the Moto, Lynskey, and the Serotta, as well as others, are off the shelf bikes, usually a custom built bike made to your exact dimensions will naturally feel better to some people depending on their measurements. I had a custom built Mercian and I couldn't tell the difference between it or my off the shelf steel bikes in terms of comfort, but that maybe due to my body dimensions are just fine with an off the shelf bike.

[Lionel]

The best titanium bike is the one you are riding. Whether someone wants to pay $2500 extra for a Baum over the next most expensive option is up to him. He is mostly getting a very expensive paint job which is fine. I think Houston paid $900 to paint his camo for paint and I like it. There is no rational to this. Ride you want.


ps: the best titanium bike is a Spectrum super

[Kirk007]

I love Max's work and have one of his AirLandSea's and have lusted for a ti gravel bike from him but if I recall correctly Max's price on his website is for frame only and if that's the case then when you add in the fork your about the same price as a Spectrum, Hampsten etc.....

Originally Posted by sfo1

So I was looking at a ti road disc frame with requirements being light, very stiff (front end-44mm and bb), butted, custom geo and a under $4k.

After going through the thread there was 333fab. Must be others. Suggestion?

[Clancy]

Originally Posted by joosttx

I am just saying that the lynesky i rode was a friends was not that good of a ride compared to other titanium bikes I have owned. I agree it is not a guarantee more expensive bikes are better and that ownership clouds judgement but My intent was to buy a lynesky and I was disappointed. IMO

Pretty hard to discern the quality of a frame based on the test ride you described.

Put 28’s Vittoria Corsa’s or Compass tires on an average frame and it will ride darn near sublime.

Heavy cheap tires and the best Ericken will feel harsh.

With that said, used high quality MUSA Ti frames are hands down the BEST bargain for inexpensive entry to high end cycling. Just need to know what your looking for. I sold an early Merlin, geo designed by Tom Kellogg, for nickels on the dollar and I’d put that up against any modern Ti frame out there.

I have an old Ritchey Break-Away that rides just as perfectly wonderful as my custom to me stainless steel Anderson, which I dearly prize. Point though, it’s about quality.

I bought my first Ti bike 15 years ago. Used custom Lynskey. Spectacular bike, paid $750. Sold my carbons and been on steel or Ti since. For me, a titanium made frame is the perfect material in so many ways.

[Kirk007]

Originally Posted by Lionel

ps: the best titanium bike is a Spectrum super

yep.

[sfo1]

So many choices, so don't need another bike; especially at current artisan prices.

I think I'll keep my eyes peeled for a Mosaic/No22/333Fab/Moots RSL/Firefly disc in the classifieds (58.5ish x 59ish and for those that prefer S&R; ~215-230 stack and ~39 reach).

Originally Posted by Hellgate

333fab. If you like Seven, you'll love 333fab. Mine has SR mech and Shamals.

OS DB tubes, T47 BB, Breezer DOs, Enve fork, massive chainstays. Butter smooth ride.