How were decals made back in the day?

[cinema]

yeah the colors and proportions of the velocals i wanted were wrong unfortunately they do look nice. there is a dark blue in the colnago headbadge that i have rarely seen repros get correct it's almost indigo but not quite. it always turns out light blue

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by colker

I wonder why Pinarello didn´t clearcoat over the decals. I am under the impression their paint and finish were purposed to last a few seasons while the frames are way more robust.

Back in the day, Pros and Amateurs had their frames refinished yearly or sometimes twice a year if they got trashed. Made it easier especially if they switched teams. That's one reason why paint is so thin on many older steel frames. They did them quick and cheap. Same reason why for the graphics not being cleared. Being able to strip and replace them fast made more sense than for durability.

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by cinema

yeah the colors and proportions of the velocals i wanted were wrong unfortunately they do look nice. there is a dark blue in the colnago headbadge that i have rarely seen repros get correct it's almost indigo but not quite. it always turns out light blue

Some decal companies get them close but with the way things have changed color/pigment wise, they can't quite nail them. It's just the way it is. Happens all the time when companies can't use the same methods due to environmental regulations.

[BobbyJones]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Some decal companies get them close but with the way things have changed color/pigment wise, they can't quite nail them. It's just the way it is. Happens all the time when companies can't use the same methods due to environmental regulations.

Politely disagree about the environmental regs to get a color match. It’s more likely that if they’re actually proofing against an original, YOUR original may be different than THEIR original due to fading and age. Or again, it’s in the execution and cost/value proposition.

Originally Posted by colker

I wonder why Pinarello didn´t clearcoat over the decals. I am under the impression their paint and finish were purposed to last a few seasons while the frames are way more robust.

A less romantic answer than above to this: maybe that somewhere in the supply chain someone came out with a “miracle product that withstands wear without clear coat!”. Then over time it’s no miracle and definitely does not withstand wear without clear coat.

It’s speculation, but something we’ve all seen too often. Not particularly limited to bike decals.

[Doug Fattic]

What I am reading here and what I remember from the 70's is not adding up to any kind of agreement between the two. I learned how the British painted and decaled frames while I was learning to build frames at Ellis Briggs in Shipley West Yorkshire, England in 1975. Both their painting and frame building operation were on the 2nd floor and we took breaks and lunch together. I also still have some original 60s and 70's decals still in storage. They were high quality and fairly complex. I've painted frames here in the States since 1976.

I think what has happened is that the papers used to print the old classic decals is not being manufactured any more. They were multiple layers. The transfers (decals in American English) were applied onto a frame using varnish - or if they were more expensive alcohol. After they were rubbed out to remove air bubbles or extra adhesive, the top protective paper was removed. They were usually cleared over for protection and additional gloss.

I had some water slide decals made for the frames I built back when I began. It takes some special care to get the air bubbles out and let them dry enough so the top coats didn't mess them up. I don't know of any other builder that uses water slide decals. I've repainted all kinds of frames and almost none of the decals that came from the original maker were the water slide type.

Gary Prange at SSSink is the primary American manufacturer of reproduction decals. His son is doing most of the work now. I think he bought out most of the special decal paper that used to exist. He only sells to professional painters.

[colker]

Originally Posted by BobbyJones

Politely disagree about the environmental regs to get a color match. It’s more likely that if they’re actually proofing against an original, YOUR original may be different than THEIR original due to fading and age. Or again, it’s in the execution and cost/value proposition.



A less romantic answer than above to this: maybe that somewhere in the supply chain someone came out with a “miracle product that withstands wear without clear coat!”. Then over time it’s no miracle and definitely does not withstand wear without clear coat.

It’s speculation, but something we’ve all seen too often. Not particularly limited to bike decals.

I will go w/ Velocipede´s version. It seems within the ways we treated racing bikes. Not long ago sending pinarellos back to factory for repaints was a thing. Leave it at the dealer and wait. That´s when N+1 was born. Now it´s the opposite: frames are lighter and fragile while paint is durable.

[buddybikes]

I had a sign painter hand pain my name on first frame I built - came out beautiful

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by BobbyJones

Politely disagree about the environmental regs to get a color match. It’s more likely that if they’re actually proofing against an original, YOUR original may be different than THEIR original due to fading and age. Or again, it’s in the execution and cost/value proposition.

A less romantic answer than above to this: maybe that somewhere in the supply chain someone came out with a “miracle product that withstands wear without clear coat!”. Then over time it’s no miracle and definitely does not withstand wear without clear coat.

It’s speculation, but something we’ve all seen too often. Not particularly limited to bike decals.

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

What I am reading here and what I remember from the 70's is not adding up to any kind of agreement between the two. I learned how the British painted and decaled frames while I was learning to build frames at Ellis Briggs in Shipley West Yorkshire, England in 1975. Both their painting and frame building operation were on the 2nd floor and we took breaks and lunch together. I also still have some original 60s and 70's decals still in storage. They were high quality and fairly complex. I've painted frames here in the States since 1976.

I think what has happened is that the papers used to print the old classic decals is not being manufactured any more. They were multiple layers. The transfers (decals in American English) were applied onto a frame using varnish - or if they were more expensive alcohol. After they were rubbed out to remove air bubbles or extra adhesive, the top protective paper was removed. They were usually cleared over for protection and additional gloss.

I had some water slide decals made for the frames I built back when I began. It takes some special care to get the air bubbles out and let them dry enough so the top coats didn't mess them up. I don't know of any other builder that uses water slide decals. I've repainted all kinds of frames and almost none of the decals that came from the original maker were the water slide type.

Gary Prange at SSSink is the primary American manufacturer of reproduction decals. His son is doing most of the work now. I think he bought out most of the special decal paper that used to exist. He only sells to professional painters.

I've spoken to many an Italian builder including ones I work with now who used water slides and they were not cleared or varnished over. Grandis just sent me original water slides from the 70's and 80's for a refinish for someone. His originals were not cleared over and show the traditional cracking that waters do, just like on a model.

I've spoken to Alessandro, Ezio, Celestino and others about the painting of frames back in the day, specifically used by racers in Italy. They all told me stories of having their frames(either used by them or frames they made) repainted every year or in the case of Celestino Vercelli, his was repainted again before he raced the Tour. Alessandro has also told me the colors on new decals(transfers) vs the water slides from back in the day are different due to regulations on some pigments that can't be used. He said it's the same for paints they use on frames.

[colker]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

I've spoken to many an Italian builder including ones I work with now who used water slides and they were not cleared or varnished over. Grandis just sent me original water slides from the 70's and 80's for a refinish for someone. His originals were not cleared over and show the traditional cracking that waters do, just like on a model.

I've spoken to Alessandro, Ezio, Celestino and others about the painting of frames back in the day, specifically used by racers in Italy. They all told me stories of having their frames(either used by them or frames they made) repainted every year or in the case of Celestino Vercelli, his was repainted again before he raced the Tour. Alessandro has also told me the colors on new decals(transfers) vs the water slides from back in the day are different due to regulations on some pigments that can't be used. He said it's the same for paints they use on frames.

Velocipede,

What about chrome and paint? It seems the seat stays on my bike are chromed behind the paint. Same w/ the fork: crown is chrome while legs are painted but something tips towards a full chrome fork.
I plan to repaint mine and if possible leave all chrome to shine. Can i strip stays and forks? Doable?

[Gsinill]

Not sure whether cinema is actually looking for decals or just for some info on history...
If the former, Gus Salmon, either on Classic Rendezvous or Facebook specializes in waterslide decals. Not cheap but he does good work.

[cinema]

all i heard were gus' praises but unfortunately he was no longer printing when i contacted him about a month ago

fwiw all the 80-90s bianchis and colnagos i've seen or had were not cleared over. from what i understand they stopped doing that due to cost and ease of replacement as stated. lots of great info already here itt

[paredown]

For Brit bikes, Reynolds decals (they are the official supplier) and some others, this is the name that I remember -- H. Lloyd.

At one time he still had a lot of original water slides in stock, but I now many? all? are repops.

Looks like they are covering some of the Italian (and other) brands as well.

https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com/

[ultraman6970]

Did not know this guys, clearly they do old style water slides type of stuff. The other thing is that they dont have like full sets. Or have some colors in specific, either way fantastic that they have a lot of old brands in there.

Honestly it is a bummer that manufacturers do not sell their own set of decals, just have them in stock from the guy who they get them from. That could have made a nice income for the manufacturers. Even use that to estimate how much old of their stuff is still around.

Will add this dude to my list of decal guys.

Originally Posted by paredown

For Brit bikes, Reynolds decals (they are the official supplier) and some others, this is the name that I remember -- H. Lloyd.

At one time he still had a lot of original water slides in stock, but I now many? all? are repops.

Looks like they are covering some of the Italian (and other) brands as well.

https://h-lloyd-cycles.myshopify.com/

[Velocipede]

Originally Posted by colker

Velocipede,

What about chrome and paint? It seems the seat stays on my bike are chromed behind the paint. Same w/ the fork: crown is chrome while legs are painted but something tips towards a full chrome fork.
I plan to repaint mine and if possible leave all chrome to shine. Can i strip stays and forks? Doable?

Many frames are still chromed. The ChromaVelato by Wilier are a colored clearcoat over chrome. So the chrome is what's shining thru. Gives it a great effect.

Grandis still does fully chromed or partially chromed frames and forks. If it's done well, it's a great protectant for the steel. Yeah, it adds weight but it's great for durability. Just stripe the paint and polish it. It's easy. I have a few Grandis frames on the way that are chromed or partly chromed. I'm really looking forward to them arriving. I love chromed lugs and stays. So classic.

[Gsinill]

Originally Posted by Velocipede

Many frames are still chromed. The ChromaVelato by Wilier are a colored clearcoat over chrome. So the chrome is what's shining thru. Gives it a great effect.

Grandis still does fully chromed or partially chromed frames and forks. If it's done well, it's a great protectant for the steel. Yeah, it adds weight but it's great for durability. Just stripe the paint and polish it. It's easy. I have a few Grandis frames on the way that are chromed or partly chromed. I'm really looking forward to them arriving. I love chromed lugs and stays. So classic.

From personal experience I'd say it depends.
My Casati is completely chromed but they only prepared the steel prior to plating in the areas that are exposed. I.e. the rest of the chrome would not look good.
I doubt that those kind of imperfections on my frame could be polished out.