Integrated Brake on Steel Frame?

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by 93KgBike

I had that bike in college! Haven't seen one since. It was great to ride. I sold it around the time the MTB version was recalled, I think.

It has been surprisingly pleasant to ride, and the steel back end and steel fork are really stiff. Very steady, though.

[tuscanyswe]

Well i heard back from tommasini well from the local shop..

They can put the integrated entry and exit points pretty much where ever i want them but they cant make them as cable stops unfortunately.

This is likely not tomassinis own words but translated by the shop. Their motivation for this response is:

"the tubeset or smaller inserted tube for a wire will create contact with said wire when there is movement (i assume contact means make sound or create friction with tubeset or smaller inserted tube). To create angles and kinks for friction free movement is problematic. Regardless it would not be waterproof."


Pity as i was ready to order one.

This leaves me with the options of:

-Full length housing for rear brake integrated in toptube with exit / entry where i want them

-Regular non integrated stops along the tt as per usual on all modern bikes (that arent integrated).



I guess i dont have a problem with regular stops but cant help to feel a bit disappointed. If i order full top of the line lugged frame id like to be able to have it with integrated as i think it looks kinda premium on such a frame.

Hmm what to do?? Shop around for another frame or go with regular stops tic tac.

[cadence90]

Originally Posted by tuscanyswe

Well i heard back from tommasini well from the local shop..

They can put the integrated entry and exit points pretty much where ever i want them but they cant make them as cable stops unfortunately.

This is likely not tomassinis own words but translated by the shop. Their motivation for this response is:

"the tubeset or smaller inserted tube for a wire will create contact with said wire when there is movement (i assume contact means make sound or create friction with tubeset or smaller inserted tube). To create angles and kinks for friction free movement is problematic. Regardless it would not be waterproof."

Pity as i was ready to order one.

This leaves me with the options of:

-Full length housing for rear brake integrated in toptube with exit / entry where i want them

-Regular non integrated stops along the tt as per usual on all modern bikes (that arent integrated).

I guess i dont have a problem with regular stops but cant help to feel a bit disappointed. If i order full top of the line lugged frame id like to be able to have it with integrated as i think it looks kinda premium on such a frame.

Hmm what to do?? Shop around for another frame or go with regular stops tic tac.

But all this is exactly what I wrote you back in post #19.

Why do you object to full-length cable housing inside the "jet vent"?

It is a good solution for what you want, imo. It is chatter-free, clean, easy, elegant, waterproof. I do not understand why you would prefer bare cable in there, since it will be covered regardless.
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[tuscanyswe]

Originally Posted by cadence90

But all this is exactly what I wrote you back in post #19.

Why do you object to full-length cable housing inside the "jet vent"?

It is a good solution for what you want, imo. It is chatter-free, clean, easy, elegant, waterproof. I do not understand why you would prefer bare cable in there, since it will be covered regardless.
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Ppl talk about double vs single pivot rear brakes. I have not issues with either just a getting used to factor. Long brake housing oth have on the few ocations ive tried it in the last decade or so always felt a bit mushy. It never felt crisp. But it was always on older bikes so perhaps i can get a better feel today with nicer equipment?

But my preference is clearly for stops. Also prefer that i then decide what lengths go where with that set up. I guess it also bugs me a little that all info im getting is 2nd hand with translation issues (i would assume as info is vague). I guess i dont have all the info i would like to have and i do not like to ask a 3rd time as i feel a bit like a nuisance doing so..

[cadence90]

Originally Posted by tuscanyswe

Ppl talk about double vs single pivot rear brakes. I have not issues with either just a getting used to factor. Long brake housing oth have on the few ocations ive tried it in the last decade or so always felt a bit mushy. It never felt crisp. But it was always on older bikes so perhaps i can get a better feel today with nicer equipment?

But my preference is clearly for stops. I guess it also bugs me a little that all info im getting is 2nd hand with translation issues (i would assume as info is vague). I guess i dont have all the info i would like to have and i do not like to ask a 3rd time as i feel a bit like a nuisance doing so..

What cable housing? Something slightly more stiff, such as Yokozuna housing, may work well in this application.

I understand your frustration with the replies going through your shop, and I have offered to write directly to Tommasini in Italian if you would like, but I strongly suspect that your shop has already correctly interpreted the reply...that is, Tommasini will not do an integrated jet vent + cable stop, for the same reasons that most if not all builders will not: it is impractical and cost-prohibitive to do so, since fittings do not exist.

To further underscore, I just now called Holland Cycles here in CA on your behalf, since they are masters of the jet vent.

Their reply was, "A jet vent with integrated cable stops, so that bare cable could be run through it? I have never seen it. I would never do it...too expensive to fabricate. I would never do it...it would be a routing nightmare. I would never do it...it would never be completely waterproof, which is a concern. So, no, I would never do it."

I think that sums it up, sorry.

Tommasini jet vent + stiff full-length housing is my suggestion.
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[tuscanyswe]

Originally Posted by cadence90

What cable housing? Something slightly more stiff, such as Yokozuna housing, may work well in this application.

I understand your frustration with the replies going through your shop, and I have offered to write directly to Tommasini in Italian if you would like, but I strongly suspect that your shop has already correctly interpreted the reply...that is, Tommasini will not do an integrated jet vent + cable stop, for the same reasons that most if not all builders will not: it is impractical and cost-prohibitive to do so, since fittings do not exist.

To further underscore, I just now called Holland Cycles here in CA on your behalf, since they are masters of the jet vent.

Their reply was, "A jet vent with integrated cable stops, so that bare cable could be run through it? I have never seen it. I would never do it...too expensive to fabricate. I would never do it...it would be a routing nightmare. I would never do it...it would never be completely waterproof, which is a concern. So, no, I would never do it."

I think that sums it up, sorry.

Tommasini jet vent + stiff full-length housing is my suggestion.
.

Thanks again for that offer and now again for checking up on things! In the end i just dident want tommasini to get info of the same frame from 2 different sources. It would not have made it easier for them nor for the shop and aslo some work for you .)

I think it perhaps me that is not certain what actually constitutes the "jet vent" perhaps i used it wrongly previously i dunno.

I was asking Tommasini to use this (or at least thats what im hoping we asked, or similar solution). http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-...-FERRULES.html

And to integrate that into the part linked in the link that may or may not be identical to the part tommasini is allrdy using.

Perhaps its not big issue but i would hate to order it and then think it felt like an old bike in terms of mushy brake. It would bug me, i know myself, it just would. Im not a reasnoable person when it comes to things like this lol. But luckily i realize this so i try to tone it done unless im on this or similar board where i can speak my looney mind .)

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by cadence90

What cable housing? Something slightly more stiff, such as Yokozuna housing, may work well in this application.

I understand your frustration with the replies going through your shop, and I have offered to write directly to Tommasini in Italian if you would like, but I strongly suspect that your shop has already correctly interpreted the reply...that is, Tommasini will not do an integrated jet vent + cable stop, for the same reasons that most if not all builders will not: it is impractical and cost-prohibitive to do so, since fittings do not exist.

To further underscore, I just now called Holland Cycles here in CA on your behalf, since they are masters of the jet vent.

Their reply was, "A jet vent with integrated cable stops, so that bare cable could be run through it? I have never seen it. I would never do it...too expensive to fabricate. I would never do it...it would be a routing nightmare. I would never do it...it would never be completely waterproof, which is a concern. So, no, I would never do it."

I think that sums it up, sorry.

Tommasini jet vent + stiff full-length housing is my suggestion.
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I'm surprised they have "never seen it", or there is some misunderstanding about what is being asked for. Every Vitus had a housing stop, internal cable tube and housing stop on the exit. The inside looks like this:



They also sell this thing, which works just with the brass tube:



Perhaps Holland thought it was supposed to work as a bare wire inside the top tube?



The reason the stop versions are nice is because you can control the housing. With a full length housing type the rear brake and steering are constantly tugging the housing back and forth, and you can't get exactly the housing curve you want to the rear brake.

The concern about water getting into the brass tube is valid if either end opens to the top. But plenty of bikes use them. Grease your cables, I guess.

[cadence90]

Originally Posted by tuscanyswe

Thanks again for that offer. In the end i just dident want tommasini to get info of the same frame from 2 different sources. It would not have made it easier for them nor for the shop and aslo some work for you .)

Yes, it is best that you communicate with Tommasini through one source (your shop) if possible.

But, my offer still stands. I can even write whatever you want in Italian, email it to you, and then you can have your shop forward it to Tommasini.

Originally Posted by tuscanyswe

I think it perhaps me that is not certain what actually constitutes the "jet vent" perhaps i used it wrongly previously i dunno.

I was asking Tommasini to use this (or at least thats what im hoping we asked, or similar solution). http://www.cycle-frames.com/bicycle-...-FERRULES.html

And to integrate that into the part linked in the link that may or may not be identical to the part tommasini is allrdy using.

No, you understand it very well. That's right, those are standard "jet vent" parts. Whatever Tommasini uses surely follows those basics: internal tube + flush "bridge" piece + "jet" cap if desired.

Again, I just wouldn't run bare cable in it.

Originally Posted by tuscanyswe

Perhaps its not big issue but i would hate to order it and then think it felt like an old bike in terms of mushy brake. It would bug me, i know myself, it just would. Im not a reasnoable person when it comes to things like this lol. But luckily i realize this so i try to tone it done unless im on this or similar board where i can speak my looney mind .)

You're fine, and you know what you want.
But the advantages of internal, full-length cable far outweigh bare cable.
I think that a well-built jet vent, with something like Yokozuna and your Campagnolo brakes, would be fine. Even w/new Campa cables, imo.
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Perhaps ask this question here/elsewhere:
"Those of you who are using full-length cable housing, from lever to rear rim brake on a road bicycle, internally routed inside the top tube: which brand of housing are you using? Are you finding that brand sufficiently stiff, responsive, and with good modulation?"

It can't hurt to ask....
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[Kontact]

Is full length cable, routed through the top tube any different than when routed through three external housing guides? The way just about every bike was before the '90s?

[tuscanyswe]

Originally Posted by Kontact

Is full length cable, routed through the top tube any different than when routed through three external housing guides? The way just about every bike was before the '90s?

No but what do you mean..

Btw so the nice moser (on page1) solution would be to labor expensive to do today for most builders?

[e-RICHIE]

Maybe I'm missing something. Tommasini does internal routing. You want internal routing. What's the rub? I haven't read every reply, so apologies if my question is redundant.

[Kontact]

Originally Posted by tuscanyswe

No but what do you mean..

Btw so the nice moser (on page1) solution would be to labor expensive to do today for most builders?

That full length cable housing (in or out of the TT) used to be normal and everyone was fine with it.


I don't know why the Moser routing would be grossly more expensive than any other, but I can appreciate that a company that does cable stops one way might not want to have to learn a different way.

[tuscanyswe]

Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

Maybe I'm missing something. Tommasini does internal routing. You want internal routing. What's the rub? I haven't read every reply, so apologies if my question is redundant.

Oh dear hopefully no rubbing!
Its just that i rather have stops at the entry / exit or the internal cable / wire rather than full length housing that seem to be the only internal option for now.

Originally Posted by Kontact

That full length cable housing (in or out of the TT) used to be normal and everyone was fine with it.


I don't know why the Moser routing would be grossly more expensive than any other, but I can appreciate that a company that does cable stops one way might not want to have to learn a different way.

Yes i can appreciate that to. Just was hoping they knew what i meant and had done what i wanted before but it will be good in the end im sure.

[Charles M]

Just have Kelly Bedford build you a full pass through routing...

[cadence90]

Originally Posted by Charles M

Just have Kelly Bedford build you a full pass through routing...

Even that detail, nifty as it might be, would never make me a fan of ISPs.
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