Custom Frames and New Builders

[m4rk540]

Something cool versus something good.

Why?

A buddy just bought a klunker from a builder who's been in the industry for a few months. I don't understand the consumer psychology here. I get standing in line for 2 days for a new drop at Supreme or spending $600 for a scarf from a 21 year old designer who will be the next Tom Ford. But a year's worth of house payments for a frame you'll ride 4x a month? No judgment! Just wondering how people rationalize sending their hard earned cash to a non-proven entity for a discretionary bike purchase. In other words, why did the first 50 guys and gals send their cash off to Sacha. Or what's your thought process in the post-Serotta era. Are people still rational or is it all about emotion and experience?

[blakcloud]

This is only a guess at my part, but I would bet it was about the relationship between the builder and the customer. That connection, that bond, is what seals the deal.

Even now, that is what drove me to buy my custom bike from an established builder. I have been to a few NAHBS and Philly Bike Expos and talked to builders. The person I chose to build my bike was the person I liked the best, who I thought was genuine and the one I wanted to give my money to. We seem to click on a level that I found comfortable. For me it was about the relationship.

[happycampyer]

Not sure what special demarcation Serotta’s closing has to do with this question. This has been a topic on this board for as long as I can remember, going back before I joined. I think NAHBS indirectly contributed to or helped validate the phenomenon with its new builder section, but my guess is the expanded use of the internet beginning in the 2000’s was when it became possible to hang out a virtual shingle and attract a wider audience than just the people in your town or local area.

There are still several larger shops where one can learn the craft before setting out on one’s own—Moots, Seven, IF, etc. Each of those companies has been the training ground for some of the best builders in the industry, alongside Kirk, Wages, Bedford and No. 22 (among others) from Serotta.

As far as why one would buy from a builder with little formal training? I agree with blakcloud that it’s hard to say. The one builder with little formal experience who really struck me with his designs was Ezra Caldwell (Fast Boy Cycles)—I wish I had bought one of his bikes before he passed away from cancer.

[R3awak3n]

/\ Ezra's bikes were amazing.


and althought I get where you are coming from (the OP), everyone has to start from somewhere and some guys are just good at this.

Look at bishop. Dude is young and for a while he did not have that many bikes under his belt but man but his bikes always have looked amazing.

However I do expect a little discount from a new builder (by new I mean new new not someone that is considered new compared to the dinosaur builders) but someone in his first year of building.

[Clancy]

Originally Posted by m4rk540

Something cool versus something good.

Why?

A buddy just bought a klunker from a builder who's been in the industry for a few months. I don't understand the consumer psychology here. I get standing in line for 2 days for a new drop at Supreme or spending $600 for a scarf from a 21 year old designer who will be the next Tom Ford. But a year's worth of house payments for a frame you'll ride 4x a month? No judgment! Just wondering how people rationalize sending their hard earned cash to a non-proven entity for a discretionary bike purchase. In other words, why did the first 50 guys and gals send their cash off to Sacha. Or what's your thought process in the post-Serotta era. Are people still rational or is it all about emotion and experience?

Let’s say a house payment of $2,000 a month X 12 equals $24,000. Or let’s be on a tight budget and say $1,200 a month mortgage. That comes out to $14,400.

Yikes! That’s an expensive frameset!

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by m4rk540

Why?

A buddy just bought a klunker from a builder who's been in the industry for a few months.

what exactly do you mean by klunker realistically? bicycle frames are brutally simple, mechanically speaking. unless it fails at a weld, or isnt aligned properly, etc - it's pretty hard to make a bad bike frame, no? curious what makes you say your pals bike is a "klunker".

Originally Posted by m4rk540

a year's worth of house payments for a frame you'll ride 4x a month?

The price is a good point of discussion. I assume, either you have incredibly low "house payments" or you're just embellishing with this statement, but i do firmly believe that the new guys to the scene should cost less.

there are a handful of frame builders who have spotless reputations and have literally been building bikes for multiple decades. their price list reflects those years of experience and credibility.

one reason someone might select a newish builder is their price for a frame can be significantly cheaper, less than half, of the major established players.

local racing and participation in events is another reason someone might feel comfortable buying a frame from a new builder. if joe fbuild is supporting local cyclocross racers and they are beating the crap out of his frames weekly racing cross, i feel confident that he knows how to build a bike that can take some abuse and be OK.

those are two examples off the top of my hed, but i do believe it comes down to a relationship with the builder in most cases as mentioned above. as i opined, a bicycle frame is a super simple mechanical structure; if, for whatever various reasons, you establish some level of trust with the guy holding the torch, i dont think it's too hugh a leap of faith to think you'll get a decent bike.

[paredown]

Some of it--because you can...

If you have a solid income, and can swing it--why not? Think of yourself as a patron of the arts on a small scale!

[zambenini]

Originally Posted by m4rk540

Something cool versus something good.

Why?

A buddy just bought a klunker from a builder who's been in the industry for a few months. I don't understand the consumer psychology here. I get standing in line for 2 days for a new drop at Supreme or spending $600 for a scarf from a 21 year old designer who will be the next Tom Ford. But a year's worth of house payments for a frame you'll ride 4x a month? No judgment! Just wondering how people rationalize sending their hard earned cash to a non-proven entity for a discretionary bike purchase. In other words, why did the first 50 guys and gals send their cash off to Sacha. Or what's your thought process in the post-Serotta era. Are people still rational or is it all about emotion and experience?

what i absolutely get is buying a frame from a new builder who seems poised to become a great craftsman/woman. what i absolutely do not get are the other things you mention, standing in line for a new drop or a designer article of clothing. i had to read the post seversl times to make sure it said what i thought it said.

also i dream of a world where my house payments for any given three months were what i have spent on a bike frame.

[vincenz]

What kind of frame costs a year of house payments?

I think people buying custom frames these days aren’t so much into performance as aesthetics or relationship with the builder.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by vincenz

What kind of frame costs a year of house payments?

I think people buying custom frames these days aren’t so much into performance as aesthetics or relationship with the builder.

Maybe we should be asking about the house instead?

[pdonk]

This house cost less per year than the frame I bought around the the time I was living in it - my dekerf team sl.

This is the house that actually cost less than my speedvagen complete or the first new car I bought.

[bikinchris]

I used to work with guys who talked like that. Except, they both had carbon fiber bass boats with 400hp outboard motors, big screen GPS and fish finders and they used them maybe 10 times per year. I rode my bike every day.

[buddybikes]

1. Usually if a builder is starting out and has no reputation their prices are quite attractive - yes bit of a gamble but anything is

2. Established frame makers (i.e.: Firefly guys) had significant skills and known track record, their startup went right to top end quickly. (yes I got in pretty early #257 by time I got it)

[zambenini]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Maybe we should be asking about the house instead?

Lol,yeah, OP must live in an area with affordable housing .... Would love that.

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[unterhausen]

My mom's house was just outside a dividing line between affordable houses and incredibly cheap houses. I'm talking <$20k. Really didn't seem to be that bad of a neighborhood either, zero cop cars there ever. It occurred to me that I could own an entire block of houses.