Seller significantly understated frameset weight (by about a pound); recourses?

[echappist]

Recently bought a frameset from someone on this forum. In his ad (posted on another forum), he states that frameset is 3.5 lbs. When I contacted his specifically about this (asking if the frame has mass of 3.5 lbs or if the frame/fork/headset has mass of 3.5 lbs), he further clarified, saying:

3.5lbs for everything that is for sale:
frame/fork/HS/seatpost/bottom bracket/front derailleur clamp

I was impressed, given that this is a medium-sized titanium frame. Of course, quite a bit of the components are light-weight, but assuming 350 g for fork, 100 g for BB, 100 g for HS, and 150 g for seatpost, and 25 g for the clamp adapter, and assuming his scale actually read 3.75 lbs (as opposed to 3.5 lbs), this would mean a frame mass of ~975 grams (inclusive of drop-out and seatpost collar).

I took him at his word and bought everything except the seatpost. It now turns out that everything I bought (frame, fork, HS, BB, and clamp) has a mass ~2 kg (or 4.4 lbs), and this doesn't even include the seatpost. Again, using rough estimates of 350 g for fork, 100 g for BB, 100 g for HS, and 25 g for the clamp adapter, the mass of the frame is actually ~1,425 grams.

I paid for the purchase via Paypal G&S, so I think I definitely has buyer's protection. If I want to return the frame (because the seller has made false advertisement), who is responsible for shipping?

Alternatively, if I decide to keep it, am I due for an allowance? And if so, how much would be reasonable?

[Monsieur Toast]

I would demand .9 lbs of flesh.

[charliedid]

Assemble the men...

[Big Dan]

What material is this thing?

[JAGI410]

Do you like the bike? Did you get a good deal? Will it fit you well?

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Monsieur Toast

I would demand .9 lbs of flesh.

Haha. Old School.

[Spdntrxi]

975g Ti frame in M.. would have required photo proof.

[djg21]

Originally Posted by echappist

Recently bought a frameset from someone on this forum. In his ad (posted on another forum), he states that frameset is 3.5 lbs. When I contacted his specifically about this (asking if the frame has mass of 3.5 lbs or if the frame/fork/headset has mass of 3.5 lbs), he further clarified, saying:


I was impressed, given that this is a medium-sized titanium frame. Of course, quite a bit of the components are light-weight, but assuming 350 g for fork, 100 g for BB, 100 g for HS, and 150 g for seatpost, and 25 g for the clamp adapter, and assuming his scale actually read 3.75 lbs (as opposed to 3.5 lbs), this would mean a frame mass of ~975 grams (inclusive of drop-out and seatpost collar).

I took him at his word and bought everything except the seatpost. It now turns out that everything I bought (frame, fork, HS, BB, and clamp) has a mass ~2 kg (or 4.4 lbs), and this doesn't even include the seatpost. Again, using rough estimates of 350 g for fork, 100 g for BB, 100 g for HS, and 25 g for the clamp adapter, the mass of the frame is actually ~1,425 grams.

I paid for the purchase via Paypal G&S, so I think I definitely has buyer's protection. If I want to return the frame (because the seller has made false advertisement), who is responsible for shipping?

Alternatively, if I decide to keep it, am I due for an allowance? And if so, how much would be reasonable?

Wrong forum. I think you want Weight Weenies.

Why are you using rough estimates? Perhaps the seller was basing his representations on manufacturer-provided information, which tends to be off. You got a light bike, and unless you are at 6% body fat or less, what difference is couple of ounces really going to make. You can take a laxative and **** out that much in one visit to the toilet.

Go ride your bike.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by echappist

Recently bought a frameset from someone on this forum. In his ad (posted on another forum), he states that frameset is 3.5 lbs. When I contacted his specifically about this (asking if the frame has mass of 3.5 lbs or if the frame/fork/headset has mass of 3.5 lbs), he further clarified, saying:


I was impressed, given that this is a medium-sized titanium frame. Of course, quite a bit of the components are light-weight, but assuming 350 g for fork, 100 g for BB, 100 g for HS, and 150 g for seatpost, and 25 g for the clamp adapter, and assuming his scale actually read 3.75 lbs (as opposed to 3.5 lbs), this would mean a frame mass of ~975 grams (inclusive of drop-out and seatpost collar).

I took him at his word and bought everything except the seatpost. It now turns out that everything I bought (frame, fork, HS, BB, and clamp) has a mass ~2 kg (or 4.4 lbs), and this doesn't even include the seatpost. Again, using rough estimates of 350 g for fork, 100 g for BB, 100 g for HS, and 25 g for the clamp adapter, the mass of the frame is actually ~1,425 grams.

I paid for the purchase via Paypal G&S, so I think I definitely has buyer's protection. If I want to return the frame (because the seller has made false advertisement), who is responsible for shipping?

Alternatively, if I decide to keep it, am I due for an allowance? And if so, how much would be reasonable?

Honestly, Jim, I think you and the seller started off down the wrong path.
Unless the frame is specifically noted for its lightweight properties (i.e Moots RSL) why would the seller make a point to highlight the weight? And why would you buy a Ti frame primarily for that purpose?

I think you ride a Ti bike for it's magical, ephemeral feel. So, if I were you, I would decide if you can live with the extra pound or so. If you love the ride, keep it. If weight is really the preeminent concern, send it back.

[echappist]

Originally Posted by JAGI410

Do you like the bike? Did you get a good deal? Will it fit you well?

I like certain features of the bike (geometry, Di2 readiness, and I really hope 28c clearance as well). As for the pricing, it was okay; the seller also resorted to underhanded negotiation tactics.

We agreed to a price (lower than listing). I asked for clarification on clearance (photos), and he balked, saying it was too much work, and that he didn't want to do it b/c 1) his wife no longer wanted to sell (the bike was for his wife), and 2) b/c I allegedly low-balled him (the agreed upon price was $100 lower than what I ended up paying, and certainly less than 10% off).

He said he'll keep the frame and won't sell it. I countered that I will pay $100 more than originally agreed upon price.

A day later, he came back with the photos, and the frame was apparently for sale again.

Originally Posted by djg21

Perhaps the seller was basing his representations on manufacturer-provided information, which tends to be off.

He expressly said he took the mass himself, and doubled that down after I sought clarification. I would have been happy with a F/F/HS of 3.5 (or even 3.75 lbs)

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

Honestly, Jim, I think you and the seller started off down the wrong path.
Unless the frame is specifically noted for its lightweight properties (i.e Moots RSL) why would the seller make a point to highlight the weight? And why would you buy a Ti frame primarily for that purpose?

I think you ride a Ti bike for it's magical, ephemeral feel. So, if I were you, I would decide if you can live with the extra pound or so. If you love the ride, keep it. If weight is really the preeminent concern, send it back.

I have my guesses, but I won't write about it publicly, at least not yet.

As for why the mass matters, the low mass was germane to my evaluation of the pricing. Yes, it's self-interested, but we are talking about a monetary transaction here, and it's part and parcel of that transaction. No one forced him into making a misrepresentation, and when he had a chance to clear it up, he doubled down on his original statement.

[.RJ]

Originally Posted by echappist

Alternatively, if I decide to keep it, am I due for an allowance?

No

Originally Posted by echappist

And if so, how much would be reasonable?

$0

My $.02. If you like the bike, ride it. If you dont, send it back.

[mtechnica]

Tuition cost for the school of hard knocks lol

[GregL]

Caveat emptor. If the weight seemed too low to be true, the numbers you were given should have been a red flag. Then the communications with the seller and negotiating process weren't smooth - red flag #2. The best way to handle unpleasant sales experiences is to avoid them entirely. I'm sorry that this sale wasn't a positive experience. I've been fortunate to buy/sell several framesets on this forum and all experiences have been great.

Greg

[BobbyJones]

I’m with the above. Send it back if the weight is important. Or figure out what it’s worth to you at that weight and work something out.

Then again, if you’re just venting, that’s ok too.

edit added after reading further: It’s not about the weight, is it?

[echappist]

delete