Hey Jaybee: the 2021 NBA season has started.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

Steph. Best shooter ever. Significantly responsible for the modern game and every 14 year old practicing 30 footers in his driveway. Tremendously entertaining. Not one of the 5 best PGs.

I think you’d have many healthy debates on that one 😉

[FlashUNC]

Point God is absolutely in the Top 5. Just to take one data point, his value of replacement player is double that of Isaiah Thomas. Double.

Isaiah was a great player, but he's no Chris Paul.

[Burning Pines]

It gets hard because some of the modern point guards aren't really point guards in the traditional sense. Paul definitely is, though.

While their games are different from each other, Dame, Steph, Kyrie, and Westbrook are kind of... not exactly point guards all the time? Dame brings the ball up the floor and distributes, but he is shoot first. Kyrie is not really much a of a playmaker, and now he's essentially the 2 for Brooklyn. Steph works off the ball all the time, like a 2 (helps to have an all-time great passing 4). Westbrook is a playmaker but not really a distributor... he doesn't run plays, he mostly just drives and kicks (and is excellent at it).

IDK, it's hard to rank greats at a single position because a lot of HOF level players are good enough that they transcend the traditional bounds of their role.

Anyways all that aside at this point I'd for sure have CP3 above Dame, Kyrie, and Westbrook. Probably not Curry, if we're calling him a point guard. This could of course change once all of these players are retired.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Burning Pines

It gets hard because some of the modern point guards aren't really point guards in the traditional sense. Paul definitely is, though.

While their games are different from each other, Dame, Steph, Kyrie, and Westbrook are kind of... not exactly point guards all the time? Dame brings the ball up the floor and distributes, but he is shoot first. Kyrie is not really much a of a playmaker, and now he's essentially the 2 for Brooklyn. Steph works off the ball all the time, like a 2 (helps to have an all-time great passing 4). Westbrook is a playmaker but not really a distributor... he doesn't run plays, he mostly just drives and kicks (and is excellent at it).

IDK, it's hard to rank greats at a single position because a lot of HOF level players are good enough that they transcend the traditional bounds of their role.

Anyways all that aside at this point I'd for sure have CP3 above Dame, Kyrie, and Westbrook. Probably not Curry, if we're calling him a point guard. This could of course change once all of these players are retired.

Ahem.

[Spaghetti Legs]

Now to take the thread in a different direction. NBA really needs to get a handle on replay reviews and flagrant foul reviews. I was watching Wizards - Bucks last night, pretty competitive, close game. Starting at about 5 minutes left, things slowed down with fouls at either end, then at about 3 minutes left, the game completely ground to a halt. Long review for a flagrant, the “did he leave room for the shooter to land?” kind, followed by an even longer review for the same thing against Westbrook on the other end, followed immediately by a challenge of the same play. I diddled around on the iPad, switched channels, came back to the game to see the back of the referee looking at the replay screen. Finally game started back, another foul, with a time out. At that point I said screw it and went to bed. Playoffs are going to be very painful when the stakes are higher.

[Jaybee]

This replay rant is 100% on point.

Sports does not need replay, challenges, any of that. The ref calls it like he or she sees it, game goes on.

[Spaghetti Legs]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

This replay rant is 100% on point.

Sports does not need replay, challenges, any of that. The ref calls it like he or she sees it, game goes on.

Agreed, I'd much rather argue about blown calls that sit through that. Seems like we still argue over the reviews. Reminds me of the old saw that we could eliminate all the close calls in baseball by moving first base 1 foot farther away.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

This replay rant is 100% on point.

Sports does not need replay, challenges, any of that. The ref calls it like he or she sees it, game goes on.

I'd be more sympathetic to this view if NBA refs -- who are still some of the best in the business -- didn't get calls wrong constantly. Just look at the 2 minute reports after NBA games.

It's not ideal, but I would rather have a video review to get a second look at things and potentially correct a wrong call, then let a mistake fly by that could have a material impact on the game. If these are high leverage situations in high stakes games, then the league should be using every tool at their disposal to ensure the rules are being enforced accurately and fairly.

I agree it does disrupt the flow of the game, and coaches are now bringing that into their bag of tricks on play reviews.

A compromise is maybe review all plays but "who touched it last" possession questions at full speed only, no slo mo replays from a million angles? The possession ones are usually resolved pretty quickly anyways, it's the flagrant foul calls that seem to take the longest.

On the whole though for me? Net positive for the game.

[Burning Pines]

Yeah I'm one of the few people who prefers the coach's challenge and reviews. I'd rather they get it right, and as a nerd I appreciate that fouling late in games is a tactic. Now, if the NBA wants to speed up late games there are things they could do that don't reduce the accuracy of calls. Some ideas:

- Teams are automatically in the penalty in the last ~2 minutes.
- No timeouts/just one timeout in the last X minutes, no matter how many you have left
- Timeouts don't advance the ball past half court.

[Jaybee]

God help me, I'm relapsing. 100% here for this version of Russell Westbrook and the super fun Wizards in the Play-in Tournament.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

I'd be more sympathetic to this view if NBA refs -- who are still some of the best in the business -- didn't get calls wrong constantly. Just look at the 2 minute reports after NBA games.

It's not ideal, but I would rather have a video review to get a second look at things and potentially correct a wrong call, then let a mistake fly by that could have a material impact on the game. If these are high leverage situations in high stakes games, then the league should be using every tool at their disposal to ensure the rules are being enforced accurately and fairly.

I agree it does disrupt the flow of the game, and coaches are now bringing that into their bag of tricks on play reviews.

A compromise is maybe review all plays but "who touched it last" possession questions at full speed only, no slo mo replays from a million angles? The possession ones are usually resolved pretty quickly anyways, it's the flagrant foul calls that seem to take the longest.

On the whole though for me? Net positive for the game.

The call might be wrong, or not, but they even out over the course of a game, season, decade. It's a human sport, the limits of referee perception are part of that.

Since I know the replay thing isn't going back in the box, I can only hope we find some sort of compromise like you describe where the refs are given a couple full speed angles of a given play and maybe 30 seconds to figure it out, otherwise call stands.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

God help me, I'm relapsing. 100% here for this version of Russell Westbrook and the super fun Wizards in the Play-in Tournament.

Here's everything you need to know about Russ in one play. Screws up the initial pindown screen by going under it, allows open 3, uses insane athleticism to block what should have been a clean look. https://mobile.twitter.com/WorldWide...08122434400266

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Jaybee

God help me, I'm relapsing. 100% here for this version of Russell Westbrook and the super fun Wizards in the Play-in Tournament.

If Russ is on a night and Beal goes Super Saiyan, they can absolutely scorch anyone in that play-in tourney group.

[Jaybee]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

If Russ is on a night and Beal goes Super Saiyan, they can absolutely scorch anyone in that play-in tourney group.

It's too bad Sixers are going to be the 1. Who wouldn't want the no-defense Nets vs hot Wizards as 1-8 matchup with all the old OKC relationships?

Of course, it's just as possible that Russ goes 4/27, freezes Beal out at a critical moment and the whole franchise collapses in the off-season.

[FlashUNC]

It's the Wizards. That's 1000% what's going to happen.