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  #76  
Old 01-26-2023, 12:53 AM
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carlucci1106 carlucci1106 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by krooj View Post
Rim brakes have way better modulation and give you the ability to confidently scrub speed, where discs aren't treating a structural component as a wear item. Pros/cons.
This is subtle, but I like what you did here. With a carbon rim, this is a major $$ consumer, if you have to replace rims.

With an aluminum rim, you're likely going to get 2 to 3 rotors-worth of use before needing replaced, and it's about the same cost (when factoring in brake pads with each rotor, as you should do). But excellent point on the "for" side of disc brakes. Show my work for this:

Ultegra Rotor 59.99*3= 179.97
L02/LO3 Pads 24.99*3= 74.97
= $254.94

DT Swiss RR 411 Rim= $128
28 DT 14/15g spokes @$2.99= let's say 83.72
= 211.72

Let's assume you've replaced the rim pads in there twice, which you may/may not have done, and it's about even. Replacement rim pad inserts are as cheap as $9-13 with a little Google shopping. As much as $25 for OEM.

The labor for replacing the rotors and pads three times should be about $90, as likely the caliper would need to be adjusted. This is assuming $10/per itemized labor/job. And this factors out brake bleeds which are always needed on SRAM, almost always needed on Shimano. @$20-30/wheel, so you could also factor this in, if you think 2 rotors would last what a rim would. Truing rotors/rims is probably a wash, too. Minor true on a rotor @$10, minor true on a wheel $15-20, but needed less often. Rotors warp pretty easily.

The labor for rebuilding wheel should not exceed this at most shops. $60-80

I should have said in my post about the causal nature of discs probably started when carbon rim brakes were not performing well in the wet, tires blowing off rims, etc.

But the whole bike was overhauled from an engineering standpoint as a result of this. Was carbon rims enough to warrant a wholesale change across the board, or should it have been restricted to top-level race bikes?

I think most rational consumers know the answer to that. A $400-500 hardtail or hybrid is going to have brake maintenance at some point that for most people is going to "total" the bike (replace rotors/calipers, and maybe brake levers/shifters too).

Last edited by carlucci1106; 01-26-2023 at 02:49 AM.
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  #77  
Old 01-26-2023, 05:42 AM
5oakterrace 5oakterrace is offline
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Maintenance

I wonder how many folks will bother with bleeding the brakes every year, especially those who are not avid cyclists. Seems to me that lots of people ride with chains that are not maintained. What are the implications down the line. I do not know.
At least with rim brakes you can see whether the pads need replacement. Disc fluid has to be changed as a matter of yearly maintenance. Wow. I hope these manufacturers have made real durable brakes and fluids. Perhaps not an issue for the conscientious but just another headache.
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  #78  
Old 01-26-2023, 06:23 AM
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oldpotatoe oldpotatoe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
Best thing about rim brakes is when riding in a tight paceline (see what I did there?) and being able to lightly scrub a very minuscule tiny bit of speed while still pedaling so as to not "slinky" the group. Far easier and more precise than disc brakes.
And these below the very best there is when doing just that....PLUS, HUGE coffee shop points when ya stop for that latte' during the Sunday 25 miler.

LOOK at that tire clearance(and height adjustable to boot....)

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  #79  
Old 01-26-2023, 06:25 AM
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Davist Davist is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
Best thing about rim brakes is when riding in a tight paceline (see what I did there?) and being able to lightly scrub a very minuscule tiny bit of speed while still pedaling so as to not "slinky" the group. Far easier and more precise than disc brakes.
Actually the best thing I remember was that you can see the back brake actuating, knowing the rider in front of you may be scrubbing off some speed... I won't say it's "far easier and more precise" though
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  #80  
Old 01-26-2023, 06:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by carlucci1106 View Post
This is subtle, but I like what you did here. With a carbon rim, this is a major $$ consumer, if you have to replace rims.

With an aluminum rim, you're likely going to get 2 to 3 rotors-worth of use before needing replaced, and it's about the same cost (when factoring in brake pads with each rotor, as you should do). But excellent point on the "for" side of disc brakes. Show my work for this:

Ultegra Rotor 59.99*3= 179.97
L02/LO3 Pads 24.99*3= 74.97
= $254.94

DT Swiss RR 411 Rim= $128
28 DT 14/15g spokes @$2.99= let's say 83.72
= 211.72
.
Lots snipped BUT...a Ultegra rotor is 60BUCKS?? $25 for pads??Yikes..

And y'all sell DT Comp spokes for $3 per? Gotta raise me prices...PLUS, LBS built that wheel or install that roar and bleed those brakes? Labor too.
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  #81  
Old 01-26-2023, 06:50 AM
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carlucci1106 carlucci1106 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpotatoe View Post
Lots snipped BUT...a Ultegra rotor is 60BUCKS?? $25 for pads??Yikes..

And y'all sell DT Comp spokes for $3 per? Gotta raise me prices...PLUS, LBS built that wheel or install that roar and bleed those brakes? Labor too.
Yeah, Peter. As they say, sh*& is getting real

I'm quoting prices for pads/rotors just from standard internet-order places.

The $2.99 is what we used to charge for DT Comps, in house, yes. I protested heavily, and said that's a ridiculous markup, as I did for many things.

Recently, now that I pay consumer prices for things, I have noticed how high we had been on a lot of consumables in general. I picked a full housing run for a rear brake, and an inner cable for just over 10 bucks.

I think the Spesh Rep(tiles) would regularly encourage you to raise margins on bulk consumables, so that their paltry bike/accessory margins would be balanced and hurt less. You see how evil they are, when it seems like an innocent "nudge?"
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  #82  
Old 01-26-2023, 07:25 AM
glepore glepore is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by oldpotatoe View Post
And these below the very best there is when doing just that....PLUS, HUGE coffee shop points when ya stop for that latte' during the Sunday 25 miler.

LOOK at that tire clearance(and height adjustable to boot....)

Yeah, they're excellent speed modulators and look awesome, but when you have to STOP NOW, they're sorta marginal.
But I do love 'em.
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  #83  
Old 01-26-2023, 07:43 AM
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carlucci1106 carlucci1106 is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 5oakterrace View Post
I wonder how many folks will bother with bleeding the brakes every year, especially those who are not avid cyclists. Seems to me that lots of people ride with chains that are not maintained. What are the implications down the line. I do not know.
At least with rim brakes you can see whether the pads need replacement. Disc fluid has to be changed as a matter of yearly maintenance. Wow. I hope these manufacturers have made real durable brakes and fluids. Perhaps not an issue for the conscientious but just another headache.
The truth, from experience at the shop, is they go until the lever is to the bar. And yes, everything needs to get done, typically. Pads need replacement, rotors torched, need bleed BADLY.

I have Shimano hydraulics on my MTB. Don't have to bleed them every year, but I don't MTB as much as I would like to. If you are an everyday rider, for sure, every year, maybe twice a year you need bleeds. And labor to do varies widely. I've heard everything from $10-35ish/wheel.

It used to be more headache, cause you never knew when a SRAM one had the problem where the master cylinder was sticking, because they were known to be too large for the bore of the brake lever. If they got too hot, they would expand and jam the brake system. But faulty pistons, and other problems can be just as common an issue. Traditionally SRAM has more problems, but others are not perfect, either.
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  #84  
Old 01-26-2023, 08:31 AM
Mark McM Mark McM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
Best thing about rim brakes is when riding in a tight paceline (see what I did there?) and being able to lightly scrub a very minuscule tiny bit of speed while still pedaling so as to not "slinky" the group. Far easier and more precise than disc brakes.
I have never noticed this to be problem with rim brakes. Do people really have brake modulation problems like this?

Of course, experienced cyclists know that if you really want to "lightly scrub a miniscule tiny bit of speed" in a paceline, then you sit up slightly more, or move slightly away from the center of the rider you're following, to pick up slightly more air resistance.
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  #85  
Old 01-26-2023, 08:39 AM
DeBike DeBike is offline
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It is beyond me why anybody cares what preference of brake types a bike fitter has.
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  #86  
Old 01-26-2023, 08:44 AM
Mark McM Mark McM is offline
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A few practical issues with disc brakes haven't yet been mentioned, and could matter to riders participating is certain types of events. One is that disc brakes introduce wheel interchangeability issues. If you have multiple sets of wheels, then you may need to shim the rotors on some of them so the rotors don't rub when you swap wheels. This is easy enough to do in the shop, but could be a problem if you need to use somebody else's wheels while riding (such as getting neutral support). It used to be that using 3rd party wheels was just a matter of making sure it had the same number of sprockets. Now, you also have to worry about rotor sizes and offsets.

Disc brakes also adds complexity when traveling with a bike. For example, rotors can easily be bent packing and transporting a bike. Many people have taken to removing rotors for transport, which adds extra steps and extra tools when packing and unpacking a bike. And when wheels are removed, a disc caliper spacers should be used so the pads don't get pushed out if the levers get depressed.

None of these alone might be deal breakers, but depending on the circumstances it could tip the balance toward the practicality or rim brakes when you add it all up.
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  #87  
Old 01-26-2023, 09:27 AM
Blue Jays Blue Jays is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Mark McM View Post
"…if you really want to 'lightly scrub a miniscule tiny bit of speed' in a paceline, then you sit up slightly more, or move slightly away from the center of the rider you're following, to pick up slightly more air resistance…"
Totally agree that sitting-up or moving slightly off-center both work, too. Rim brakes work nicely as well.
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  #88  
Old 01-26-2023, 12:25 PM
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TheseGoTo11 TheseGoTo11 is offline
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Things got out of hand the last time the "rim vs disc" horse was beaten.
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  #89  
Old 01-26-2023, 12:39 PM
tomato coupe tomato coupe is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Blue Jays View Post
Best thing about rim brakes is when riding in a tight paceline (see what I did there?) and being able to lightly scrub a very minuscule tiny bit of speed while still pedaling so as to not "slinky" the group. Far easier and more precise than disc brakes.
It's just as easy to do that with disc brakes.
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  #90  
Old 01-26-2023, 12:46 PM
tomato coupe tomato coupe is offline
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Originally Posted by fourflys View Post
my point was was your paraphrase was very one-sided and bit "click-baitish"..
I didn't paraphrase anyone -- I simply agreed with someone else's post. And, how does that make it click bait? There's nothing to click on!!
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