carbon frame making video, derosa

[shaq-d]

from road bike review forums.. link was so good..i'm sure u guys will enjoy it if u haven't already seen it...

http://www.cyclingtime.com/modules/m...ing200506.html

and pinarello

http://www.cyclingtime.com/modules/m...llo200508.html

[dbrk]

You have to hand it to DeRosa for letting this film be made. It sort of reminds me of that old Colnago film of them brazing up bikes on this moving contraption that stopped at an auto-brazer before turning to the human hand, all done on a certain schedule. Here we see the hand work of gluing up carbon but, well, it's glue! Call me oldschool or whatever, but this isn't how Goodrich, Sachs, or Kirk do it, though I suppose I mean not to romance the craft too much nor diminish what DeRosa or other carbon builders are doing...no, not at all, but it's a whole new world of resins and gook rather then flux, penny nails (or whatever tacks), and brazing materials. I think most builders would rather not show you the down and dirty but here one of the DeRosas explains the process with a certain kind of candor, lets it appear for all to see, and says that they can make a total of 7,000 quality frames in all materials each year. Production is waaaay different than one at a time or one guy or, say, a tenth as much (or less).

Well, kudos to DeRosa for letting us in. I have not much interest in these new carbon frames (from DeRosa or nearly anyone else unless we can get past pure race designs, which we will), well, at least in comparison to metals, but DeRosa's lugged steel NeoPrimato was still shown front and center with pride, without excuses, with loving care and beautiful presentation at Interbike. It was, oh, about a zillion times more interesting to me than wavvy tubes or even the King or Protos, et.al. They know the future of production bikes is not lugged steel but it was a pleasure to see them embrace the old and the new (and in my view, shamelessly so, and good'on'em for it).

dbrk

[david]

dbrk,

i, too, am fond of steel and, especially, lugged steel. and i've always had a thing for derosas. the neo primato has caught my eye on more than one occassion. but i've balked at buying one because i've often wondered who is actually building these frames.

since the neo primato seems fairly low on the totem pole in derosa's lineup, i've wondered if they're putting their best people on it. and since they're making 7000 frames a year, how many different people do they have brazing these frames? i have to assume several and, if so, the quality must vary.

i'm sure with a neo primato that you're getting a derosa in geometry and, perhaps, spirit. but what about craftsmanship?

love to hear your thoughts.

thanks

[dbrk]

I spoke to with one of the DeRosa brothers about the Neo Primato while at Interbike. He told me a few interesting things, all of which he said with real conviction. First, that there are no more than 15 people who work full time for the company. Next, that all of their bikes are built in the same factory, which is now carefully parsed out for different kinds of production. The NeoPrimato is in the hands of the oldest DeRosa builders because, well, it's brazed and they do it best (and likely fastest).

While paint can conceal a multitude of sins and the "quality" of a bike build is one of those things, I am very, very happy with the way my two DeRosa NeoPrimatos ride. The Molteni bike has the Mizuno fork; the Faema bike has the newest oldstyle steel fork with a debossed crown. The ride, like I said, is really wonderful. If all "race" bikes had DeRosa geometries, well, that would be fine by me.

Allow me to wax a minute on lugged steel bike builds. Lots of bikes that are actually made, well, nearly like crap, ride GREAT! (Gosh, the things I have seen...) Some famous bikes and great riders did not even have the tubes mitered. Without paint you see more but even then it can be very difficult to tell the quality of the penetration of brazing, how the tubes were affected by heat, and a slew of other issues. Still, a bike doesn't have to be made brilliantly to ride just fine. When you move into the world of one man shops and very attentive craft, you still get a mixed bag of quality. I should not like to name names but not all one man shops are as good as some production bikes. That said, the best of the one man shops or very, very small operations, like Sachs, Goodrich, Kirk, Weigle, and Kellogg, these bikes have taken lugged steel to entirely different planes of quality. These guys have brought reality to the romance of frame building that the oldschool cannot even remotely approach. Sure, there are a few who have built to great, great quality (Nagasawa, Confente likely too) but these bikes are so much better made than even the best production shops (Toyo comes to mind...), that it's not even remotely close. And among one man shops there is a fair degree of difference in quality. This level of craft has inspired others whose work is at comparable levels: Sacha White, Nic Schmidt, and other younger generation builders have risen to the mark. There are guys most have never heard of who can build FANTASTIC frames, like Mark Bulgier or Martin Tweedy, the list actually is quite long.

One doesn't need a bike built to this level of exacting care for it to be a perfectly nice bike. I would not compare the DeRosas to these American builders in quality, since they are too not even close. But the DeRosas are really swell bikes and once you know what you are getting into, whether it be the topmost shelf, like SGKWK, or production, then you rest easy and know where the money goes as does the ride.

dbrk

[LegendRider]

Well, I just watched the DeRosa video and it was certainly eye-opening. My first "good bike" was a Ferrari-red DeRosa SLX. I regret to this day ever selling it and I still have a soft spot for DeRosas (a red and white NeoPrimato would make me very happy!).

It seems like the tubing manufacturer(s) should get as much credit as DeRosa for the bike. How hard is it to spec some tubes and glue them together??? With proper supervision I could build my own King (or so it appears). It seems like the hard work is the engineering and manufacturing of the tubes!

Are any glued-together carbon bikes worth the kind of money DeRosa and others get for them? I just ordered a Parlee Z1x (and I've owned a Calfee) - my hope is it require more skill and craftsmanship to make, otherwise, I will have wasted a lot of money!

[e-RICHIE]

wow. WOW!

i just saw it. though brevity is my m.o.
here, this time i am truly speechless.

i think i'll stew on this for a few and mebbe
post later - yeah, later - after i do a 'cross ride.

[Too Tall]

You are sort of blown away by the way he wields that butter knife too?

[Johny]

The DeRosa guy said it is very important to use Italian-hand-made butter knife to ensure the quality...

P.S. It is later confirmed by the Pinarello sales manager that they make the knife for DeRosa, again, by hand.

[nicrump]

Originally Posted by e-RICHIE

wow. WOW!

i just saw it. though brevity is my m.o.
here, this time i am truly speechless.

i think i'll stew on this for a few and mebbe
post later - yeah, later - after i do a 'cross ride.

I think I know where you are going. Please don’t dump all carbon building into your thoughts on this example of PVC pipe assembly.

[e-RICHIE]

Originally Posted by nicrump

I think I know where you are going. Please don’t dump all carbon building into your thoughts on this example of PVC pipe assembly.

you are mistaken wrt to where i am going.
i went to good schools.
breeding, and all that stuff...

....they finally found a useful purpose for the black entity of the X-Files.

[sspielman]

As much as I appreciate the craftsmanship of the best handmade lugged steel frames, I have to admit that the nicer modern carbon fiber ones certainly do their job well.....

[ada@prorider.or]

Originally Posted by LegendRider

Are any glued-together carbon bikes worth the kind of money DeRosa and others get for them? I just ordered a Parlee Z1x (and I've owned a Calfee) - my hope is it require more skill and craftsmanship to make, otherwise, I will have wasted a lot of money!

meaby now you understand my remarks about the frame's made and the money charged for it
and we do not talk about the carbon used

i have seen bike like this construction explode on the world's in france in 5 piece

my stumic turns around if i seen this and even that they say here you see costum build
we have no secret's
we call this LEGO glue champions

sorry could not hold my selve back

if yoou want to have the strenght of the bike the fibers must run all the way tru
no all the strenght is in the glue what is less the the carbon you can imagine

i better watch he has a big knive italian way

[sspielman]

It seems to me that there has been a response to the popularity of carbon frames by the major tubing manufacturers. They are offering carbon tubes and related items so that their traditional clientele-small builders- can participate in the latest trend. Instead of buying aluminum or steel tubes and welding them up, the tubes are carbon and are glued together. The question is if the final product is really a quality one, and what value-added service is there for an otherwise great artisan to do the gluing. Most of the Italian builders are offering frames constructed this way...out of necessity for survival as much as anything. I think of a carbon frame much more as an industrial product than a craftsman article....although I would appreciate if it had some craftsman elements.

[bluesea]

Thanks for the links. A few points:

The "glue" being used is epoxy, properly thickened for a certain amount of gap filling properties that would be needed to facilitate the alignment process. These are sound and long proven techniques. I have a 22# kayak that has been similarly glued together (top, bottom) that has survived 2 seasons of training and racing, including 2 Molokai channel races.

I guess for me, for my part, the thing that I gleaned most from the vid is the complete lack of soul. That frame as it comes from the factory is little more than a mechanical device--a potentially desirable and functional device to be sure, but one that has no soul other than that in which its new owner can bestow. But then again, so is my steel Colnago, heh.

What we see here is the worker being alienated from the fruits of his labor, the creative aspects of his...oops wrong forum.