OT - What's going on in France

[daker13]

It sounds like Macron's pursuing classic neoliberal austerity strategy, with tax cuts on the wealthy to 'drive innovation' subsidized by broad gas taxes on everyone else. Seems wrong-headed to blame the riots on hostility to climate change policies, or even anger about the gas tax. I'd be skeptical of anything coming out of the Times, the Post, or other major US news sources on this one. The article I read in the Times this morning really did not make a lot of sense, in terms of explaining the cause for the riots. I'm waiting for better explanation of what's going there. Mainstream news sources really don't do a good job of reporting on and interpreting spontaneous social movements, whether they origin on the left or the right or some mixture of the two.

[wc1934]

Originally Posted by daker13

It sounds like Macron's pursuing classic neoliberal austerity strategy, with tax cuts on the wealthy to 'drive innovation' subsidized by broad gas taxes on everyone else. Seems wrong-headed to blame the riots on hostility to climate change policies, or even anger about the gas tax. I'd be skeptical of anything coming out of the Times, the Post, or other major US news sources on this one. The article I read in the Times this morning really did not make a lot of sense, in terms of explaining the cause for the riots. I'm waiting for better explanation of what's going there. Mainstream news sources really don't do a good job of reporting on and interpreting spontaneous social movements, whether they origin on the left or the right or some mixture of the two.

Lots of thoughts and opinions from various sources. I've read a bunch and still cant decipher the truth - here is another take on it.

https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...just-a-symptom

[Buzz]

You have to be a little careful when using the Netherlands as an example. The Dutch didn’t suddenly decide in the 1970s in reaction to a fuel crisis to adapt bicycles and bicycle infrastructure. It’s just wrong to ascribe a well thought out idealized govt and societal policy to where they are now. There as no thinking, doing and adapting as you write. Heavy bicycle use was present long before then as seen in this video from the 1950s. What Amsterdam had going for it is that there simply isn’t any room to widen street for vehicle traffic and the tram and trolley system didn’t access all those narrow city roads as well. I think the same for Utrecht.

When we lived in Rotterdam in 1981 I remember mostly cars and a truly excellent tram system. It’s a more spread out area now much of that due to the fact that the old narrow cityscape was destroyed during WW2 and rebuilt with more modern road layout, building setbacks, etc. Different physical locations result in different adaptations. For parts of The Netherlands’s the bicycle has always been and remains the easiest, most practical way of getting around. Rich or poor doesn’t matter. Nothing more to it than that.
Lots of rich and poor people riding bikes together in the video below decades before the energy crisis and the theory that the Dutch somehow became progressively enligjtened and tackled the energy crisis.
https://youtu.be/oQ4XQElmO_E

Originally Posted by rain dogs

We can start a conversation about rich people feeling the same pain as poor people and it'll be over before it begins. I also think that's the wrong way to look at it anyway.

Again, the Netherlands had rich and poor people. They still have rich and poor people. The fuel crisis of the 70's, was tackled there by a set of much more courageous and forward thinking people than in other parts of the world. That shift led to the establishment one of the largest and most developed bicycle infrastructures that exist in the world today. And their culture adapted. And poor people ride bicycles, and guess what rich people ride bicycles there too. With some of the highest % of daily trips done by bicycle (more than 50%). Lower car usage than nearly anywhere in Europe, from what was prior to that one of the highest.

None of that would have happened if they got stuck in the mud of 'share the pain' and 'the rich and poor need to be equal' when they are not, never have been and never will be.

They got thinking, doing and adapting.... three very simple, very underrated actions. And now, somewhat poetically, when rich people ride the same bikes as poor people they are much closer to be equal than prior.

France... well, I guess they protest rising fuel prices and a small minority decide setting things on fire will do something. To that I say: Welcome to our inevitable future

[velotel]

Like all these kind of histories the reasons are complex. Started quite a few years ago with the european push to privatize and reduce expenditures, following the american model which is constantly being pushed/forced on the rest of the world. Naturally the privatizing bit profits the big corporations and the rich, the expenditure reductions hammer everyone else. Consequently for quite a few years there’s been a downward pressure on the general population, as in higher taxes, reduced services, reduced revenues.

Macron was elected with a lot of hope that he would be someone different, someone with a fresh perspective, and that he’d change things in favor of the multitudes rather than for the rich. None of which occurred of course. Or at least little of which occurred and some in exactly the opposite direction. For example taxes were reduced on corporations with salaries for executives receiving a huge increase but not the workers on the factory floors so to speak. Macron is pretty commonly seen now as representing and working for the rich, not necessarily with total reason but with enough reason to end up dominating perceptions.

Almost all families consist of two working parents. They have to in order to have enough to live on. Makes life difficult for all concerned.

The catalyst that kind of really started kicking the latest protests into action were taxes that particularly hit retired people, who were already squeezing money to get by. Then the Macron government starting hitting hard on cars and pushing to get the industry and people to switch to electric cars. Except the cars are expensive and even with government incentives, vast numbers of people can’t afford them. People aren’t all stupid and they’ve realized that electric cars are at least as polluting as petrol cars and probably more polluting with one small advantage for France, the pollution is moved to asia and elsewhere. The french are also rather happy with themselves because of the high percentage of electricity generated by their nuclear reactors even though they’re also conveniently ignoring the long range massive problems with nuclear energy. Also electric cars are really only sensible for those who live in towns and never drive far plus have convenient and safe parking where they can plug in their cars. The fact of the matter is that charging electric cars is a huge problem and in the cities safe parking is already a massive problem.

The increase in fuel taxes was the proverbial straw. Huge numbers of french (and people in other countries too) have had enough. They’re tired of always getting stuck with the reduced services in schools, medical aid, etc. while the rich keep getting richer and richer. So there’s a giant reservoir of anger welling to the surface that goes way beyond simply the taxes on fuel.

Like I said, it’s complex and goes back a lot of years. No idea how it’s going to work out. Doesn’t seem like the government or any government in fact, knows what to do.

Just to add something regarding fuel costs, as I recall the price at the pump includes over 50% in taxes, might be 55 or 56%. In other words the government has way more control over the cost of fuel at the pump than the cost of fuel in the oil tankers.

Regarding the comments about the Netherlands and bikes and all that, people seem to be forgetting that the country is super small and super flat and super condensed, which makes bikes super easy. Bikes are also an old history for them, exactly because of the country’s size, flatness, and compactness. But I can assure you than when they go on holiday, which they do as frequently as they can and with huge enthusiasm, they go by car, with bikes strapped on of course.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by Buzz

You have to be a little careful when using the Netherlands as an example. The Dutch didn’t suddenly decide in the 1970s in reaction to a fuel crisis to adapt bicycles and bicycle infrastructure.

I'm quite sure they did just that. Of course if you go backward you're going to find high bicycle usage in European cities - especially post WWII when bicycle usage was again near it's highest in Europe - it's when cities "automobilize" and become heavy car users that you normally see a political will to preserve that 'new, modern automobile culture.'

I can't embed the image I want so you'll have to go here:
https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2...ng-kindermoord

there you can see data showing that bicycle trips dropped from 80% of all trips to 20% at the start of the 70's, with people even predicting that the bicycle would be abandoned altogether besides novel use.

To claim that the Dutch government hasn't decided to prioritize cycling and cycling infrastructure is incorrect. Because the bicycle was in fact all but abandoned by Dutch standards. Stop the Kindermoord ("Stop the Children Killing"), the fuel crisis, Car-free Sundays, Restricted road use, Urban re-design have all been intentional attempts to rebuild bicycle usage, and deincentivize car use. Look, I'm all for protest, as that's also at the heart of the Netherlands transformation.... just this "Diesel is expensive" "I want to drive my car" protest in France is what to me seems backwards. And yes, layers of an onion... and shades of grey etc., but at the heart of these French actions is civil action over the rising cost of fuel.

Today, in the Netherlands 60% of journeys to city centers are done by bicycle. Only 28% of daily commutes are done by car. Dutch own 1,7 bicycles for every resident *some 22 million bicycles for 18 million people. There are 480 cars for every 1000 people in the Netherlands (32nd in the world, with a very high GDP, and one of the lowest in Europe, especially amongst the richer countries)... the USA is second to San Marino btw with 910/1000 or all citizens... children, elderly and all.

The reason people use the Netherlands as an example is because they are one of the few first world examples we have of governments implemented what most people would describe as backwards policies or other typical conservative rhetoric like "retro-fetishism", "naive hippy idealism", "an affront on individual autonomy", "the war on the car", etc. etc.

Your citing of 1950's bicycle usage prior to the explosion of individual car usage up until the early 70's (post/war rebuilding and "modernizing") only furthers to prove the point of the unique and courageous government transportation policy that exists in the Netherlands and that have totally changed and reclaimed the urban landscape today.... not sure what data you have that could present it any other way.

[goonster]

Originally Posted by rain dogs

Most petroleum based fuel sources are highly subsidized by government... certainly in the US, Canada, Spain and I'm very certain in France as well.

France is different, and has always taxed fuel at higher rates than other countries. This goes back to at least the 60's, I think, and had a big effect on French car designs. Whatever the other differences, French cars were more frugal on fuel than German cars, and even top-of-the-line limousines, like the Citroen DS, were generally offered only with smaller displacement engines.

[Tony T]

Can't be that bad in France, CNN hasn't said much about it.

[texbike]

Originally Posted by velotel

Like all these kind of histories the reasons are complex. Started quite a few years ago with the european push to privatize and reduce expenditures, following the american model which is constantly being pushed/forced on the rest of the world. Naturally the privatizing bit profits the big corporations and the rich, the expenditure reductions hammer everyone else. Consequently for quite a few years there’s been a downward pressure on the general population, as in higher taxes, reduced services, reduced revenues.

Macron was elected with a lot of hope that he would be someone different, someone with a fresh perspective, and that he’d change things in favor of the multitudes rather than for the rich. None of which occurred of course. Or at least little of which occurred and some in exactly the opposite direction. For example taxes were reduced on corporations with salaries for executives receiving a huge increase but not the workers on the factory floors so to speak. Macron is pretty commonly seen now as representing and working for the rich, not necessarily with total reason but with enough reason to end up dominating perceptions.

Almost all families consist of two working parents. They have to in order to have enough to live on. Makes life difficult for all concerned.

Huge numbers of french (and people in other countries too) have had enough. They’re tired of always getting stuck with the reduced services in schools, medical aid, etc. while the rich keep getting richer and richer. So there’s a giant reservoir of anger welling to the surface that goes way beyond simply the taxes on fuel.

Hmmm. Why does this sound so familiar? Perhaps we'll see yellow vests closer to home as well...

Texbike

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by texbike

Hmmm. Why does this sound so familiar? Perhaps we'll see yellow vests closer to home as well...

Texbike

Yup..

Macron(_____) was elected with a lot of hope that he would be someone different, someone with a fresh perspective, and that he’d change things in favor of the multitudes rather than for the rich. None of which occurred of course. Or at least little of which occurred and some in exactly the opposite direction. For example taxes were reduced on corporations with salaries for executives receiving a huge increase but not the workers on the factory floors so to speak. Macron(_____) is pretty commonly seen now as representing and working for the rich, not necessarily with total reason but with enough reason to end up dominating perceptions.

[Climb01742]

I thought this was helpful backstory:

https://www.nytimes.com/2018/12/02/w...gtype=Homepage

I think this is bubbling in every industrialized nation, to different degrees. Hard to find politicians who are tackling it seriously and honestly. Unless it is addressed, boom.

[goonster]

Was just thinking about how the responses were strikingly different when some folks rioted in '05, over issues not all that dissimilar, really. Instead of the current "what has made these people so angry?" soul searching and hand-wringing, the first guy to call for "pressure washing the criminals out of the suburbs" became the next President.

[Davist]

Originally Posted by goonster

Was just thinking about how the responses were strikingly different when some folks rioted in '05, over issues not all that dissimilar, really. Instead of the current "what has made these people so angry?" soul searching and hand-wringing, the first guy to call for "pressure washing the criminals out of the suburbs" became the next President.

Couldn't be because in '05 they were mostly of North African descent, could it? France has a much higher percentage of public employment than even China if I recall correctly, the famous 35 hour work week, etc, folks not in on that are stretched very thin, and the cadre's (middle management types) aren't getting out of the way due to decades of low productivity...

Meanwhile here in the US we have more job openings than job seekers, I can't find enough people, though 49-51% of the people ignore this.

[verticaldoug]

Originally Posted by Davist

Couldn't be because in '05 they were mostly of North African descent, could it? France has a much higher percentage of public employment than even China if I recall correctly, the famous 35 hour work week, etc, folks not in on that are stretched very thin, and the cadre's (middle management types) aren't getting out of the way due to decades of low productivity...

Meanwhile here in the US we have more job openings than job seekers, I can't find enough people, though 49-51% of the people ignore this.

The statistic is something like 6.7 million job openings for 6.4 million workers. People talk about the skills mismatch etc. But given the disparity of openings to seekers (this has never occurred before in US) , wages should be accelerating higher but this is not happening. They are creeping higher at best.

Corporate culture in the US has shifted from rewarding employees to paying an ever larger share of the pie to capital and management. (These points are pretty much a given now)

In some aspect, it is like college football, where Athletic directors and head coaches pay increases, but players must remain scholarship only.

[Davist]

Originally Posted by verticaldoug

The statistic is something like 6.7 million job openings for 6.4 million workers. People talk about the skills mismatch etc. But given the disparity of openings to seekers (this has never occurred before in US) , wages should be accelerating higher but this is not happening. They are creeping higher at best.

Corporate culture in the US has shifted from rewarding employees to paying an ever larger share of the pie to capital and management. (These points are pretty much a given now)

In some aspect, it is like college football, where Athletic directors and head coaches pay increases, but players must remain scholarship only.

Buried the lead there, eh?

[daker13]

Thanks Velotel. Your write-up was more enlightening than anything I read in the Post or the Times in the last few days.