1980's bicycle geometry?!?!

[Turkle]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

I once decided to do a non-stop unsupported century ride, and in order to carry enough water, I added two tall (28 oz) bottles in cages mounted directly behind the saddle (total weight water, bottles, cages, and bracket probably about 4 lb.). The extra weight high up made a big difference in how the bike felt and handled - particularly when riding out of the saddle. I had to practically re-learn how to coordinate rocking the bike laterally when stomping on the pedals out of the saddle. I even did a little test to see if it was just total weight, or weight distribution, by moving the water bottles between the downtube and seat tube mounted cages and the saddle mounted cages (total weigh remaining the same). It felt like I was riding a different bike when I moved the bottles up or down.

I ride a Ritte Esprit, and they actually mentioned that they purposefully placed the water bottles as low as possible on the frame so as to get the weight as low to the ground as possible.

From the website:

Our bikes already feel pretty light due to a lower center of gravity than many. A slightly lower bottom bracket keeps you low. Low mount water bottle cage positions do the same, dropping the bottles as low as possible on the frame. After all, the weight of two full 22oz water bottles is more than the weight of most modern carbon road frames. And those become swing weight when you’re out of the saddle!


So naturally, we should talk about the swing weight of the highest point on the bike - the saddle. Your saddle itself probably isn’t that heavy, we generally select relatively light saddles and relatively light seatposts. This keeps the swing weight lower when you’re climbing out of the saddle. A 100g difference at the bottom bracket may not be perceptible, but 100g out at the saddle…makes a difference that you can feel!

[zennmotion]

The Italian Central Sports School C.O.N.I. cycling bible codified frame design in the 60s/70s and I think the design principles for "correct" frame dimensions were widely adopted for lugged steel diamond frames. I don't know the history, but I have a 1971 copy of the C.O.N.I. manual that devotes a chapter to frame design, including this table. FWIW, I've gone and retro-measured a few of my most memorable, in terms of fit and handling, for a few of my favorite rides (my custom lugged Spectrum, my Ritchey Road Logic, a vintage Eisentraut, a vintage Marinoni) and found that they consistently align very closely to the CONI standard dimensions for my basic body measurements per the tables. Here's a photo of one of the pages. Those guys pretty much had it dialed a long time ago!

[benb]

Originally Posted by zennmotion

The Italian Central Sports School C.O.N.I. cycling bible codified frame design in the 60s/70s and I think the design principles for "correct" frame dimensions were widely adopted for lugged steel diamond frames. I don't know the history, but I have a 1971 copy of the C.O.N.I. manual that devotes a chapter to frame design, including this table. FWIW, I've gone and retro-measured a few of my most memorable, in terms of fit and handling, for a few of my favorite rides (my custom lugged Spectrum, my Ritchey Road Logic, a vintage Eisentraut, a vintage Marinoni) and found that they consistently align very closely to the CONI standard dimensions for my basic body measurements per the tables. Here's a photo of one of the pages. Those guys pretty much had it dialed a long time ago!

I wonder how they measured where the head of the femur was accurately.

However I suspect that is a much better measurement than the fit kit "measure to the crotch from the ground" thing that was done before we got into lasers and goniometers.

I have no idea what my "A" measurement is in that chart.

[gbcoupe]

Found this towards the end of my ride today. Out by the road with a free sign.

It's a 70's Raleigh International, several sizes too tall for me. The reach is exactly where I have my bikes set.

[tv_vt]

Oh man, that International is a gem. I could probably fit that. From the looks of it, it has Campy FD, RD, high flange hubs, seatpost, and crank, too. All Reynolds 531 throughout, Campy dropouts too, I think.

My former partner rode one of those for a cross-country trip in 1980, with a rear rack (note the fender eyelets on the dropouts). It was too long in the TT for her, but we made it work. Had to ditch most of the Campy drivetrain stuff it came with because it was strictly race-oriented and we couldn't get low gears for loaded touring. Totally different approach to race gearing back in those days. Anything bigger than a 42-21 and you were branded a wimp.

As an aside, that bike should be posted in the thread about converts to electronic shifting. If that Raleigh was your baseline bike of reference, you might have a different on things...

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by benb

I wonder how they measured where the head of the femur was accurately.

However I suspect that is a much better measurement than the fit kit "measure to the crotch from the ground" thing that was done before we got into lasers and goniometers.

Why? The crotch is closer to the part of the body that actually sits on the saddle than the head of the femur is.

[stefthehat]

What a find and you’ll have collectors lining up round the block as looks 95% original and in that green ,with the dirty orange being the other colour folk go potty for .Sure you know it’s history so excuse me for being a bore ,it came full campag incl post[plus brooks],pedals and 700c tubs on campag high flange and the only change being the Weinmann centrepulls and levers .Folk think the latter was a scrimping matter but in the UK and prob U.S at the time you trained/rode around normally on 27” and only serious folk slotted in 700c’s and adjusted the brake blocks ,it has the eyelets for guards you wouldn’t be allowed on a club run without them especially in winter .I’ve still got my first bike from this era and other than being way less cool it had same campag long dropouts with eyes and centrepulls and room for guards and bigger 27”” wheels

[gbcoupe]

Originally Posted by stefthehat

What a find and you’ll have collectors lining up round the block as looks 95% original and in that green ,with the dirty orange being the other colour folk go potty for .Sure you know it’s history so excuse me for being a bore ,it came full campag incl post[plus brooks],pedals and 700c tubs on campag high flange and the only change being the Weinmann centrepulls and levers .Folk think the latter was a scrimping matter but in the UK and prob U.S at the time you trained/rode around normally on 27” and only serious folk slotted in 700c’s and adjusted the brake blocks ,it has the eyelets for guards you wouldn’t be allowed on a club run without them especially in winter .I’ve still got my first bike from this era and other than being way less cool it had same campag long dropouts with eyes and centrepulls and room for guards and bigger 27”” wheels

Sorry for the thread jack, was just timely re the older style geo.

The Raleigh has 27" clinchers. New tires will probably be the only thing I'll have to buy to get it going. Otherwise, needs a deep cleaning and regrease.

When finished, I'll likely hand it off to a taller club member that will put it to use. Our club pres spotted it while he was out working, but unable to pick it up. He posted on the chat and everyone was talking about it while I was out riding. I wasn't aware till after I had it home.

I'll post some before and after pics in its own thread later.

[Hilltopperny]

That International is nice! Here are a few from the shed. A Black Lightening, Shogun 1500 and Puch 170. All are pretty filthy and need to be gone through, but seem functional with some not seeing much use if any. They all have no drop and even the saddle tip pointed down a few degrees.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[stefthehat]

That is way cool the whole club were already on red alert ,yeah limited choice on quality 27” tyres [paselas ? Conti make one but always sold out].so in theory with the centre pulls they could slot in 700c’s and adjust the blocks down ,these Raleigh’s def had more than just a doff of the cap towards a Cinelli supercorsa

[gbcoupe]

Originally Posted by stefthehat

That is way cool the whole club were already on red alert ,yeah limited choice on quality 27” tyres [paselas ? Conti make one but always sold out].so in theory with the centre pulls they could slot in 700c’s and adjust the blocks down ,these Raleigh’s def had more than just a doff of the cap towards a Cinelli supercorsa

Probably going with Pasela's.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by gbcoupe

Found this towards the end of my ride today. Out by the road with a free sign.

It's a 70's Raleigh International, several sizes too tall for me. The reach is exactly where I have my bikes set.

I'm jealous of your freebie! Great bike!

[NHAero]

To the original topic:
I believe that the first high end Fuji was the Fuji Finest, and IIRC the TT length was a constant across the size range. Rode one in 1971, it may have been the first Fuji on the east coast.

[stefthehat]

If the wheels have large flange Campag the original owner might of got the original tubs rebuilt/laced ,reason a lot [obviously not this one]of internationals come up with hodgepodge of parts is folk would buy, take off everything [group/wheel/post]to put on their race frame then sell the frame with its intact bars /brakes

[Clean39T]

Taking this in a bit different direction..

I absolutely love how my BMC SLR01 handles and have been looking at options with similar geo, which basically comes down to road bikes that have higher trail - 63mm in my "XL" sized frame. From what I'm seeing, that trail figure was fairly standard on Italian builds back in the day before the crit-craze pushed a lot of companies to the 73-73.5 deg HTA and shorter wheelbases that are ubiquitous now.

So, do I have options to find a steel frameset that is performance oriented but has that front end geometry? Looks like a Colnago Masterlight or C-series would get me that if I can find the right size.. what else?

For reference: