20 years ago today, il Pirata died

[donevwil]

Those were the days, got me into racing.

I had four pair of the Carrera denim bib shorts because they were something like $10 on clearance at Nashbar and I was poor. Boy did I get a lot of flack (also rode a Landshark at the time), but they were super comfortable (especially in the SoCal heat) and the rear pockets were actually useful.

[weisan]

the best Pantani actions for me is not with Armstrong@Tdf but at the 1998 Giro d'Italia, Pantani vs Alex Zülle and Pavel Tonkov.

Giro d'Italia 1998 - Part 4 (stage 14) - Marco Pantani attacks Pavel Tonkov & Alex Zülle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2G_JwQqStpA

Giro d'Italia 1998 - Part 5 (stage 15-17) - Alex Zülle vs Marco Pantani
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6FBukha5pUw

Giro d'Italia 1998 - Part 6 (stage 18-19) - Marco Pantani vs Pavel Tonkov
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V1HRANDiBEQ

[alexihnen]

I happened to be in Italy Feb 14, 2004, returning from scouting a gran fondo route with the local club in Perugia. My Italian was/is awful and the guys I was riding with in the car home told me Pantani was gone. I wasn't really sure what they were saying until they used the word "morto". I knew that at least. People really were quite somber as I remember it. The guy at the local tabacchi knew I rode bikes and wanted to talk about it, teachers at the language school I sporadically attended brought it up, and so on. Italians absolutely love a hero with flaws.

A few years before this I was in Adelaide, Australia when Princess Diana died and it reminded me of that experience. I still have an Il Pirata T-shirt somewhere. He and Ulrich were my favorite riders and the reason I had an earring in college.

[Blown Reek]

Y'all got any more of those 19mm tubulars?

[Black Dog]

Originally Posted by Blown Reek

Y'all got any more of those 19mm tubulars?

What is this post? Really?

[dgauthier]

Let me say I admire Marco Pantani the way I admire Lance Armstrong. They both have immense innate talent and gifts. I could take all the dope they ever did, and I would never ride like they did. There is absolutely something in that.

But I sincerely ask with all due respect, what makes a doper like Pantani "beloved", and a doper like Armstrong not so much?

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fre...our-de-france/

[Blown Reek]

Originally Posted by Black Dog

What is this post? Really?

It's a reference to both Marco Pantani and his cocaine abuse (which wasn't mentioned) and Dave Chapelle's character Tyrone Biggums who (like Marco Pantani) is/was a cocaine addict. The 19mm tubular part refers to the fact that riders were riding 19mm tubulars (as opposed to today's widths [and are currently difficult to find]) back in Pantani's day, and since Tyrone is a crack addict (and Marco was a cocaine addict) he's looking for his "fix" of 19mm tires.

Maybe you just didn't know Marco Pantani's affinity towards cocaine, and if so, maybe your impression of him might change. If so, whoops.

That's what this post was. I hope the explanation doesn't leave you confused anymore, since you're now "in the know". Really.

[rnhood]

He was certainly one hell of a drug addict. Its happened to others too, though it seems we see it more often in the music world. Very sad, as Patani would have been very good if he rode clean.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/20...ycling.cycling

[glepore]

Originally Posted by dgauthier

Let me say I admire Marco Pantani the way I admire Lance Armstrong. They both have immense innate talent and gifts. I could take all the dope they ever did, and I would never ride like they did. There is absolutely something in that.

But I sincerely ask with all due respect, what makes a doper like Pantani "beloved", and a doper like Armstrong not so much?

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fre...our-de-france/

Lance was a d**k (even he admits it)

[Spaghetti Legs]

Originally Posted by glepore

Lance was a d**k (even he admits it)

But even Lance wouldn’t make fun of someone’s addiction 20 years after his death.

[alexihnen]

Originally Posted by dgauthier

But I sincerely ask with all due respect, what makes a doper like Pantani "beloved", and a doper like Armstrong not so much?

I think this is an important and interesting question. Why is Merckx revered and celebrated? He was a doper, caught more than once. Social norms have changed, attitudes toward "enhancements" have changed.

I was a big Lance fan and even today find myself asking why exactly he's treated differently, but what he did is on another scale. He threatened people, demeaned people, harassed people and was entirely unrepentant for years and years. Still, he seems to want to play the victim. If he weren't so successful it would likely be a different story. None of his former teammates are treated in the same fashion (Hincapie for example).

Pantani is revered in Italy because they love drama and a little cheating. I'm not really kidding. Pantani was "furbo" - literally meaning cunning like a fox, but in my experience meaning getting away with cheating. You're smart if you don't pay all your taxes, you're clever if you find a way to cheat on a class exam. It's a difference in perspective. There's some of that in the US, but really we're rule followers, or expect to be rule followers. Pantani is also a tragic figure in some respects, a bit fragile, a bit sympathetic.

[ghammer]

His was a story of abuse and neglect. He was a serial dope user since his youth, and coupled with his innate talents and fragile mind, he was an easy target.

Mind you, this is not an attack on his character. I was a fan, BIG TIME, and cheered for him, already knowing of his history. What really saddened me at the time is that it was clear he had mental health issues, and folks were more interested in raiding his pocket.

His suspension and return to the sport were closely followed, exploited, and nobody had the heart to stick it out with him. He was an addict for sure, but I believe he had underlying imbalances that led him to drug abuse. In the end he was abandoned, and died alone. It was enormous loss as a human, and even more so as a sports figure. RIP Marco.

[benb]

Yah this is all making me feel old!

I think the main difference is guys like Pantani and Ullrich bottled up their guilt, directed it all inwards, and let it destroy or almost destroy them.

Lance seems like he basically had no guilt about any of it and anything that happened he just deflected it away. Maybe he really gets it now, but sometimes it just seems like he's just gotten really good at pretending to be something other than a psychopath.

The thing is IMO all of them were just ridiculously exciting to watch. Nothing can really take that away from any of them cause when we actually watched what was happening as it happened none of them had been caught yet.

All of them also started all this in a period when it wasn't even illegal to do, couldn't be detected yet, and was widespread. Of course they all ended up doping... I think how they all handled it once they all got caught is what separates them from each other.

[Tickdoc]

Originally Posted by dgauthier

But I sincerely ask with all due respect, what makes a doper like Pantani "beloved", and a doper like Armstrong not so much?

https://www.cyclingnews.com/news/fre...our-de-france/

One of them is an asshole, and the other not so much....IMO.

[KonaSS]

Originally Posted by benb

I think how they all handled it once they all got caught is what separates them from each other.

Pantani never admitted as far as I know. Ullrich finally admitted for the first time within the last year.

I find it funny how the different dopers were treated. Some in this thread act like they were victims. Super weird.