A simple slide guide to tubeless and hookless

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Dave

I don't believe that it's accurate to say that a blow off is likely at 80 psi on a hookless rim and tire setup - that's 1.1 times the 73 maximum. Enve has seen tires go up to 140 psi before blowoff occurred. I've taken several setups to 85, just as a test. My normal pressure is 52-55. I do go to the effort to calibrate my pump gauges. My old Silca pump was reading 8psi higher than actual, so it got the tiny 0-160 gauge replaced with a much larger 0-100 model. I also check a new pump against my gauge standard.

As for why hookless, it's most likely to reduce scrapped rims due to hook defects and to simplify the molds.

So, to save the manufacturer money? Not trying to argue but 40 plus posts about this 'new' rim tech. I'm never going to sell, use, repair any tubeless regardless of hooks or non....I'm a tubular kinda guy and not gonna change. I've built a few hookless carbon rimmed wheel sets...seems the same as 'hooked', same $..Same build

Just don't get it..

For the OP..pretty sure the 'guide' was a help in using these 'new' type rims w/o
having a blowout or something...Not a pitch for hookless...

Seems odd tho than the wheel and bike 'big boys' would jump onto this bandwagon w/o decent new customer training of the many pitfalls of hookless...Gotta have their lawyers squirming some.

[benb]

Originally Posted by BdaGhisallo

This is an interesting clip from Peak Torque, looking at the manufacture of hooked vs hookless rims:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bAgxTdNIOhA

That is an excellent video. His mold comparisons are excellent and so is his comparison to the car & MC wheel/tire interfaces.

So familiar to anyone who does any kind of engineering.

Make it cheaper/Make it faster is such common management or customer request.

"Make this existing thing go much faster" is far and away my favorite thing to do at my particular job. Very rewarding when you get a big result.

The "rub" as he says is does your new process lead to the same result?

The answer is no here, they have a much better process that leads to a different end result.

Of course this is a perennial conversation.. when is it OK to change the end product/result to achieve the cost saving or time saving?

Whoever is working on glued/bonded on hooks and such at Zipp/SRAM/wherever will have a huge sense of satisfaction when they nail it and put all these issues to bed. Seems like it will probably be a "meet somewhere in the middle" solution though. Yield will probably be worse and cost higher than hookless, but better than molded in hooks.

[Carbonita]

Good find! Is this the 2023 ETRTO standard year update?

Originally Posted by RoosterCogset

I found the updated Mavic chart. IMO, the easiest way to see the ETRTO guidelines at a glance. Versus the 2yr old version, I do see they've taken 28mm tires out of the 25mm TSS rim width column.

https://technicalmanual.mavic.com/te...hemes/2_72.pdf

[benb]

I would be careful with that Mavic chart.

Each page for Tubeless has the UST logo on it.

So this is Mavic's recommendations for Mavic rims. Not anyone else's, and UST is hooked AFAICT... have they made a hookless version of UST?

Does anyone know what TC and TSS mean on the horizontal axis of those charts with the rim widths?

[fa63]

Mavic did release a hookless rim recently, but I think it is meant for gravel use.

TC = tubeless crochet (hooked)
TSS = tubeless straight side (hookless)

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by benb

I would be careful with that Mavic chart.

Each page for Tubeless has the UST logo on it.

So this is Mavic's recommendations for Mavic rims. Not anyone else's, and UST is hooked AFAICT... have they made a hookless version of UST?

Does anyone know what TC and TSS mean on the horizontal axis of those charts with the rim widths?

Mavic should be compliant with the ETRTO standard. I remember reading that ETRTO adopted their standard. Mavic doesn't sell their own brand of tires any longer.

[flying]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

So...I've been away for a while..somebody tell me again...why are manufacturers making hookless rims?
Better? Cheaper? More reliable? Faster?

I've been here the whole time & still have a wealth of no idea why this mess was invented

[RoosterCogset]

Originally Posted by Carbonita

Good find! Is this the 2023 ETRTO standard year update?

I believe, but can't substantiate since the ETRTO standards are behind some sort of paywall I think, that it follows the standards in terms of compatibility by indicating Yellow vs Gray boxes. The pressures I think they recommend, are based maybe on their own calculated logical progression of how rim width and tire width should impact max psi for every given combination, working backwards from a maximum. But, that's just my guess.

Nothing's perfect though. Someone could make a hookless tubeless tire with wire beads (non-foldable) perhaps, and claim a completely different ability to hold air at higher pressures (mounting them might be a pain perhaps :-).