ENVE advising LBSs to not support open tubular tires

[benb]

I have been riding the non-cotton Specialized S-works Turbo for about 3 years.

The cotton supposedly saves about 3-4W in the pressure range I ride at if you ride at 18mph.

Not enough to worry about the drama of the more fragile version of the tire... seems like an easy choice but maybe that's harder the more money you spend on your carbon rims.

[Joxster]

So a reply from Challenge Tyres. I have also heard that Vittoria will be taking Enve to court in the UK

From Challenge

Consumer Product Safety Bulletin
(technical clarification, following ENVE’s Consumer Safety Bulletin of March 6th, 2019)
This bulletin is to reconfirm that Challenge tires should not be used with any rims or wheels that do not comply with either the current 2019 ETRTO, past ETRTO or soon to be released ISO 5775 global standards for tire and wheel fit.
Challenge specifically clarifies herewith, that both old and new ETRTO and future ISO standards require a minimum 0.7mm rounded radius on all hooked rims.
It has come to Challenge’s attention that ENVE SES model carbon wheels do not comply with the above standards on the design of the rounded hooked rim radius. In fact, ENVE’s SES have two sharp (<0.2mm) radii in their hooks, that leave two parallel cuts about 0.5mm apart, around the entire radius of our (and other company’s) tires, at around 3- 4mm above the bead.
Challenge has noted failures of its clincher tires, communicated by consumers and athletes, caused by the sharp edges on the ENVE SES hooks. This international design standard violation has been communicated back to the affected consumers, shops, endorsed teams, ENVE and their parent company, as Challenge has been made aware of problems. ENVE, however, continues to produce and promote usage of the said SES models, as part of their line.
Challenge has consequently been forced to list the specific ENVE SES rims as not compatible with any Challenge clincher tire models, on the website. Challenge asks that consumers do not mount ENVE SES wheels with any model of Challenge clincher tire whatsoever.
Failure to follow this warning could cause the ENVE SES wheel to cut Challenge’s quality casings resulting in explosive air loss from the tire and/or inner tube, potentially causing a crash and injury to the rider.
This bulletin also aims at providing the technical clarification, that only a precisely defined 622.0mm+-0.5mm bead seat diameter, specifically defined wall height and center channel, as described in the new above standards, will safely and easily allow proper tire and rim fit and function. Challenge has regularly been attending standards meetings and being involved for the past three years in confronting the market’s accelerated changes, such as the implementation of progressively wider rims, carbon fiber clinchers rims and tubeless and tubeless ready tire technologies. Challenge has invested time, knowledge and energy together with other elite bicycle industry companies to address and update tire & wheel fit issues with the ETRTO and ISO.
March 13, 2019

Challenge handmade tires have been produced for close to 20 years using the same handmade processes that have been proven over the past 50 years at the highest levels of racing without significant failures - if the rims and wheels comply with internationally accepted design standards. And this applies for both aluminum and carbon fiber rims.
Regarding carbon fiber rims, there had also been other periodic problems in the past with some carbon rims that had cut our (and other tire manufacturers’) tire casings just above the beads. These tire cuts were however normally caused by less than optimal QC at the factory, resulting in quality issues of improper finishing at the tire hook during production. Normally roughness at the hook was due to failure to completely remove resin flashings created while molding the rim. Proper finishing leaves the required 0.7mm min. radiused rim hook smooth, without roughness, thus eliminating a potential tire failure.
In the above cases, Challenge has routinely and successfully worked with the wheel suppliers (including ENVE) to fix the problems or replace these wheels to the consumer. However, specifically with ENVE’s SES model wheels, it is the first time that Challenge has known of a rim hook design that does not meet the above recognized design criteria, reason for which Challenge feels compelled to follow up with the release of this informative bulletin to protect its customers.
For further questions please Challenge at; info@challengetech.it.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by Joxster

So a reply from Challenge Tyres. I have also heard that Vittoria will be taking Enve to court in the UK

From Challenge

Consumer Product Safety Bulletin
(technical clarification, following ENVE’s Consumer Safety Bulletin of March 6th, 2019)
This bulletin is to reconfirm that Challenge tires should not be used with any rims or wheels that do not comply with either the current 2019 ETRTO, past ETRTO or soon to be released ISO 5775 global standards for tire and wheel fit.
Challenge specifically clarifies herewith, that both old and new ETRTO and future ISO standards require a minimum 0.7mm rounded radius on all hooked rims.
It has come to Challenge’s attention that ENVE SES model carbon wheels do not comply with the above standards on the design of the rounded hooked rim radius. In fact, ENVE’s SES have two sharp (<0.2mm) radii in their hooks, that leave two parallel cuts about 0.5mm apart, around the entire radius of our (and other company’s) tires, at around 3- 4mm above the bead.
Challenge has noted failures of its clincher tires, communicated by consumers and athletes, caused by the sharp edges on the ENVE SES hooks. This international design standard violation has been communicated back to the affected consumers, shops, endorsed teams, ENVE and their parent company, as Challenge has been made aware of problems. ENVE, however, continues to produce and promote usage of the said SES models, as part of their line.
Challenge has consequently been forced to list the specific ENVE SES rims as not compatible with any Challenge clincher tire models, on the website. Challenge asks that consumers do not mount ENVE SES wheels with any model of Challenge clincher tire whatsoever.
Failure to follow this warning could cause the ENVE SES wheel to cut Challenge’s quality casings resulting in explosive air loss from the tire and/or inner tube, potentially causing a crash and injury to the rider.
This bulletin also aims at providing the technical clarification, that only a precisely defined 622.0mm+-0.5mm bead seat diameter, specifically defined wall height and center channel, as described in the new above standards, will safely and easily allow proper tire and rim fit and function. Challenge has regularly been attending standards meetings and being involved for the past three years in confronting the market’s accelerated changes, such as the implementation of progressively wider rims, carbon fiber clinchers rims and tubeless and tubeless ready tire technologies. Challenge has invested time, knowledge and energy together with other elite bicycle industry companies to address and update tire & wheel fit issues with the ETRTO and ISO.
March 13, 2019

Challenge handmade tires have been produced for close to 20 years using the same handmade processes that have been proven over the past 50 years at the highest levels of racing without significant failures - if the rims and wheels comply with internationally accepted design standards. And this applies for both aluminum and carbon fiber rims.
Regarding carbon fiber rims, there had also been other periodic problems in the past with some carbon rims that had cut our (and other tire manufacturers’) tire casings just above the beads. These tire cuts were however normally caused by less than optimal QC at the factory, resulting in quality issues of improper finishing at the tire hook during production. Normally roughness at the hook was due to failure to completely remove resin flashings created while molding the rim. Proper finishing leaves the required 0.7mm min. radiused rim hook smooth, without roughness, thus eliminating a potential tire failure.
In the above cases, Challenge has routinely and successfully worked with the wheel suppliers (including ENVE) to fix the problems or replace these wheels to the consumer. However, specifically with ENVE’s SES model wheels, it is the first time that Challenge has known of a rim hook design that does not meet the above recognized design criteria, reason for which Challenge feels compelled to follow up with the release of this informative bulletin to protect its customers.
For further questions please Challenge at; info@challengetech.it.

Challenge makes garbage tires... we all know that but Enve is at fault on this one, everyone also knows that and I am not surprised tire companies that are involved in the enve blast are pissed off.

[superbowlpats]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

Challenge makes garbage tires... we all know that .

well I think their tubular CX tires are quite good. but that's not germane to this thread. carry on.

[Davist]

Originally Posted by R3awak3n

Challenge makes garbage tires... we all know that but Enve is at fault on this one, everyone also knows that and I am not surprised tire companies that are involved in the enve blast are pissed off.

Disagree with the challenge statement, but fully agree that Enve isn't handling this well, between this and the ebike rims they're taking a beating, and it will be hard to justify their price premium around this rim's bead design, anything "sharp", including small radii, near any type of pneumatics is a tough sell in my book..

[r_mutt]

somewhat related, has anyone tried the Challenge Paris Roubaix? Does this fit in with Challenge tires are garbage?

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by r_mutt

somewhat related, has anyone tried the Challenge Paris Roubaix? Does this fit in with Challenge tires are garbage?

Yes. Gift a pair to your worst enemy. Otherwise avoid like the plague.

[R3awak3n]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Yes. Gift a pair to your worst enemy. Otherwise avoid like the plague.

[rustychisel]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

I honestly think that the main culprit for the damage observed by Enve is the wide rim / low pressure / increased flex combination. That combined with their slightly stiffer / sharper carbon bead hook and rim vs alloy counterparts is a recipe for early and catastrophic failure.

Enve's been at the forefront of super-wide internal rim diameters with their promises of lower pressures, decreased rolling resistance and increased compliance/comfort. The only other large-scale rim manufacturer to push the "wider is better" mantra more aggressively has been HED, but they've stuck with alloy for much longer than almost everyone. The increased flex and smoother bead of the alloy rim could be the better conduit for dealing with the increased casing flex than the super-stiff, deep carbon rims.

But this is all speculation until Enve or another rim manufacturer starts putting out some white papers for peer review.

A nuanced reply. But given this is 8 pages of verballing, should we not have a seperate thread for "what really s%&£ts me" before getting stuck into Challenge tyres here.

[bianchi10]

Just read through all 8 pages. I have enve 4.5's wheels wrapped with Corsa's, I'm curious if those who also use the same combination will change tires or continue to use the corsa or similar open tubular style tire?

[denapista]

Originally Posted by bianchi10

Just read through all 8 pages. I have enve 4.5's wheels wrapped with Corsa's, I'm curious if those who also use the same combination will change tires or continue to use the corsa or similar open tubular style tire?

Enve is CYA in this moment, in the event something does happen. When I ran clinchers, I ran veloflex without any issues. Just because they release a very aggressive press release, doesn't me we should all listen to them.

Imagine if you were Challenge or Vittoria and saw that press release. Someone claiming your tires are the problem, to the only rim manufacture saying there's an issue. I haven't heard Bontrager, Zipp, Corima or anyone else making these bold claims.

I stopped riding enve junk years ago. People bit the fruit. Their rims are heavy and even getting them to warranty things these days is a daunting task. Enve wheelsets sell for close to $3000. I can build a superior wheelset with FSE rims and better hubs than Enve's stock offerings. The only Enve product I liked was the 2.2 Tubular rims, but the new braking material ate through brake pads way more than I wanted them too.. My buddy wants to build a set of Enve wheels and I offered different options (FSE, Corima, ZIPP, Campy, etc). He strictly wanted ENVE, without any reasoning why... Enve conditioned his mind into thinking they're the best wheel out.

Maybe it was purely luck, but I have a buddy on 2.2 Enve Clinchers running Challenge PR clincher tires with the PP2 protection... He rarely flats and those tires have been rock solid.

[benb]

Somebody mentioned user error with low tire pressures or not checking tire pressures before every ride.

There is something really hilarious and foolish about a rider who buys multi-thousand dollar wheelsets and deliberately underbuilt race-day tires and rides them around on a daily basis but can't be bothered to make sure their tires are inflated correctly. Incorrectly inflated tires erase any gains they got by spending so much money.

I am with others.. Enve has always seemed way too expensive given how modest the the aero gains are unless you're already in a really aggressive riding position and TT at 30mph. And at that price point the build quality should be like a Serotta Legend or Meivici was... every single wheel should be absolutely flawless and finished jewel smooth.

Most of these uber expensive wheels are emperor's new clothes to me. Phil Gaimon's stories about Zipp in his book absolutely horrified me.

[unterhausen]

Originally Posted by benb

There is something really hilarious and foolish about a rider who buys multi-thousand dollar wheelsets and deliberately underbuilt race-day tires and rides them around on a daily basis but can't be bothered to make sure their tires are inflated correctly. Incorrectly inflated tires erase any gains they got by spending so much money.

I didn't spend that much money, but I ruined a number of nice tubulars this way BITD. It always made me feel stupid. But I wanted to go ride.

I have had some problems more recently because I really like low pressures on my gravel bike. But my rims are not particularly in agreement about that.

[benb]

I had Challenge gravel tires for a season and they never let me down. I don't think Challenge is wrong here if ENVEs tires are not meeting the spec and have sharp edges.

I never put more than 45psi in the challenge tires either.. the front got run down like 35psi. (38c) Great tires.

[Dromen]

Any updates on the Enve Sharpies?

I have a set of Gen2 3.4s inbound + a large inventory of last gen Vit Corsa Paves that i run on just about everything i own, including the Gen1 3.4s i just moved. Never had a sidewall failure and very few flats with these tires on any rims.

Also wondered from some of the rim experts, if there is a sharp burr/edge on the bead, can it be removed or softened with some abrasive material?

Just curious.