Does a “classic” steel frame bike with a steel fork require lugs?

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by old_fat_and_slow

I'm not expert, but here goes:

TIG welding equals tungsten inert gas welding. It is used to join steel frame members and Ti frame members together without lugs or pins.

Brazing uses much less heat than welding. Welding is hot enough that is can change the microstructures of the base metal and affect the strength properties of the parent material (usually reduces the strength and stiffness in the heat affected zone).

Typical brazing allows the braze metal to just flow into the joint. Fillet brazing you're actually building the braze filler into large fillets at the junction areas. Typically brazing doesn't affect the base metal inherent properties nearly as significantly as welding does.

Again I'm not an expert and YMMV.

Thanks, but I still can't grasp why one method might be preferable to the other. All part and parcel of the fork/new frame discussion.

[joevers]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

OT: Can someone please explain - in layman's terms - the distinction between tig and fillet brazing? Is there a significant difference in ride quality and/or aesthetics?

Much appreciated.

Tig is a huge amount of localized heat to fuse the metal together (many thousand degrees). No material added, it just kinda turns the steel into a puddle at the joint.

Brazing uses a big torch to get the steel hot enough (I think about 1.5-2k degrees) that you can dab brass on it to fill in gaps and build up a joint. Kind of like a hot glue gun, but instead of melting the glue you get the steel itself hot enough to melt glue (or rather, brass).

Don't think you'd be able to tell a difference between riding them back to back, it's hugely aesthetic.

[John H.]

I have had all flavors. Lugged, Tig, Fillet, combo.
Settle on a builder and get what the builder specializes in.

For me (especially in the Bay Area) it would be Steve Rex. He mostly does fillet with lugged bb.

[Hindmost]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

OT: Can someone please explain - in layman's terms - the distinction between tig and fillet brazing? Is there a significant difference in ride quality and/or aesthetics?

Much appreciated.

Fillet brazing uses similar materials (brass rod) and tubing as lugged construction. Tom Ritchie began fillet brazing when he couldn't find lugs and fittings to do what he wanted to do. TIG welding is a little newer technique uses localized high heat and a bit of rod to create a small bead weld steel to steel. TIG welds typically aren't smoothed. Tig construction can utilize tubing with shorter butt sections creating a potential for a lighter frame and different ride characteristics.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Hindmost

Fillet brazing uses similar materials (brass rod) and tubing as lugged construction. Tom Ritchie began fillet brazing when he couldn't find lugs and fittings to do what he wanted to do. TIG welding is a little newer technique uses localized high heat and a bit of rod to create a small bead weld steel to steel. TIG welds typically aren't smoothed. Tig construction can utilize tubing with shorter butt sections creating a potential for a lighter frame and different ride characteristics.

I'm looking at a "classic" skinny tubed Columbus Spirit frame. Light and responsive. (at least based on my other Columbus Spirt frame, which, granted is OS) Does it really matter then if if it's tig welded or fillet brazed? Looks like I'd be paying laying out more cash for the latter, so it's probably more labor intensive.

I'd kinda like the lugs, but not at the expense of limiting tubing choice. Thanks.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

I'm looking at a "classic" skinny tubed Columbus Spirit frame. Light and responsive. (at least based on my other Columbus Spirt frame, which, granted is OS) Does it really matter then if if it's tig welded or fillet brazed? Looks like I'd be paying laying out more cash for the latter, so it's probably more labor intensive.

I'd kinda like the lugs, but not at the expense of limiting tubing choice. Thanks.

Columbus makes Spirit for lugs, so you should be able to get your bike with any construction method.

There will be small weight differences, but otherwise the differences are really just aesthetic. Do you want the joint to have a lug, to look smooth, or look welded? Does your builder even give you the choice?

Lugged vs fillet vs tig is just another variation of steel vs titanium vs carbon or Shimano vs Campagnolo vs Sram. Some people feel very strongly about which they prefer, some people don't.

[Morgul Bismark]

Personally, I would go lugged frame with a steel fork. Part of that is it seems more like a period correct construction technique for a classic steel frame. The other part is that fabrication method is becoming less and less common.

That said, I wouldn't get super hung up on lugs with a steel fork. For me, I'd want a level (or very nearly level) top tube and to leave enough steerer tube length to run a -17 degree stem.

[Doug Fattic]

I can build all 3 steel types but I really like the looks of a lugged frame. In fact the reason I went into framebuilding many years ago was so that i could create the design of my own lugs. Fillet brazing done right is a distant 2nd place. People that love simplicity love a fillet brazed frame. I don't like the looks of a tig welded frame unless it is for just utilitarian purposes. Then I love them because they can be made fast and cheap. The aesthetic emphasis is now placed on the paint rather than the joints. Part of my attitude on tig is because I miss the appearance of lugs.

Some things to consider, tig welding can be done much much faster than a beautifully filed lugged frame. Much faster - no comparison. If you have the personality type that is impatient and considers the builders time estimate for completion to be a not-to-be-broken sacred contract than a tig welded frame is for you. Behind that suggestion is the realization of the personality of the builder as well as customer. My colleagues that are superb lug builders will require a lot longer lead time and their estimated date of delivery is only going to be a vague suggestion. You have plenty of bikes to ride in the meantime so don't ask a skinny long distance marathoner to become a sprinter.

Those that have said a tig welded frame is lighter than a luged frame are just plain wrong. That's correct they are wrong! I'll explain, a tig welded frame has to have tubes that are reinforced where the tubes join together at the head and seat tubes. The most common and easiest way to do this (especially if the builder and customer are in hurry) is to use a heavier wall head tube and outside butted seat tube. This combination adds more weight than a non-builder might think. It is also true that some advantage of weight comes from a plain BB shell compared to a lugged BB shell. Thinly filed lugs weigh very little and less than those heavy head and outside butted seat tubes. I'm hoping that I won't have to go out to my frame shop and weigh the various materials in each type of frame to prove my point. I've done this before on Paceline.

I love the feel of steel tubing that has thin walls. It isn't about saving weight but the way they ride. Custom builders don't have any trouble making them but production companies choose heavy tubing because they don't want a frame to break if a fat person buys one.

[Spaghetti Legs]

Like most others here, I like the aesthetics of nicely done lugs but I don’t think they’re necessary for a “classic” steel bike.

1995 Gios Compact Pro with very nicely done welds. It currently sports some same era Vento aero wheels for extra bling points. Fork is lugged on this one.

[M_D_S]

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

Those that have said a tig welded frame is lighter than a luged frame are just plain wrong.

This. My lugged Bishop with a steel fork weighs about the same as my tig welded Legor with a carbon fork. A skillful builder will take time to file and shape the lugs, resulting in a light, strong, beautiful frame.

For me, the steel fork was THE attraction for wanting a lugged road bike. The heavier fork crown (which absorbs road imperfections better), the arc of the fork legs and the feeling of the bike functioning as a whole unit has to be felt to be appreciated. Dave Kirk has written on this. I got a carbon fork for my Bishop as well and sold it - it changed the whole feeling of the front end, and did not look as nice.

[charliedid]

[crankles]

Originally Posted by jtakeda

Lugged fork for sure. But fillets are just as classic

I sooo love this bike.

[Kirk007]

or mix and match: http://hampsten.blogspot.com/2011/05/dario4andy.html (btw Hampco's lugged frames are built by Martin Tweedy who in my opinion does really nice work and Hampstens are, cost wise, a relative bargain compared to some of the other framebuilders). Of course if you want to work with someone who with rare exceptions will not send a frame out of his shop with anything but one of his exceptional steel forks then a dioscussion with David Kirk is also well worth your time.

[gbcoupe]

Lugged is my preference, but fillet and even tig frames can be nice.

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by Kirk007

or mix and match:

My Paletti is a different take on this....





That said, lugs are like jewelry on a steel bike when done right.