Why am I such an awful descender?

[Clean39T]

Was thinking about this yesterday when doing hill repeats. I get nervous and feel completely out of control over about 30mph... and I can't seem to corner or trust my tires whatsoever.

Is it bike fit? Too narrow of handlebars? Too short of wheelbase? Bad center of gravity on the bike? What gives?

[chrisroph]

Confidence, smoothness, looking far ahead. But there are too many leaves on the ground, too much moisture around, and too many cool nights to descend quickly this time of year around here. Also, a pinarello would help.

[dbnm]

The same thing happens to me. I love climbing. Bombing down a hill at 35mph makes me really nervous.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by chrisroph

Confidence, smoothness, looking far ahead. But there are too many leaves on the ground, too much moisture around, and too many cool nights to descend quickly this time of year around here. Also, a pinarello would help.

I do lack in confidence. I have a hard time flowing with the changes in wind and not tensing up. Which leads to a lack of smoothness - and draws my attention closer to where I am on the road..

No leaves on the ground over here on the eastside though - but plenty of lumpy cracks in the road.

You're not wrong about the Pinarello angle.

[benb]

Are you consciously aware of your countersteering?

There's a lot to be learned from the tenets of foundational motorcycle technique:

Slow
Look
Lean
Roll

On a bike this means:

Slow - Brake before the corner, start out not trail braking, finish your braking before you do anything with the bars

Look - Turn your head to look through the corner - Make this really significant, almost exaggerated. You're looking to the exit of the corner. Not down in front of you, etc.. This does 2 things, it puts your body in the correct posture, and it puts your eyes where they need to be to see any hazards or need to adjust your line as early as possible. This can't really be stressed enough.. when I took motorcycle training even after 10s of thousands of miles of bicycling this took huge effort and it was crazy how far they wanted you turning your head. Since I stopped motorcycling this is the thing that takes the most effort to maintain good habits.

Lean - Push on the inside bar to initiate the turn. Left turn, you push on the left bar. Right turn, you push on the right bar. Relax the pressure when you hit the desired lean angle, if your bike fits well the bike should track on rails and not try to stand up or fall down when you're doing this, then you can make very slight pressure changes to make fine changes. But if you've judged the corner correctly you won't really need to. This is all really critical if you are going through switchbacks where you have to transition L <-> R really fast.

Roll - basically pedal ASAP. It's limited compared to a motorcycle cause we have crap pedal clearance. But on a downhill gravity will do it for you.

You also need to start thinking about and analyzing the corner as you approach it. What does the camber do? What does the radius do? Can you see road surface issues that should dictate a particular line? This stuff gets very deep. Not much discussion of it in road cycling circles. You'll find a lot more of it in MTB circles and motorcycle sport/race guys will analzye this stuff for days. Doing laps over a short trail in the woods or at a racetrack on a moto lets you repeat experiments through the same corner over and over and learn a lot in a short period of time.

[BobbyJones]

If you don't have a physical ailment affecting your balance or vision, it's obviously Psychological.

Regardless if its related to tactile feel like you mentioned, you're afraid to crash so get over it and you'll be fine. There's something to be said for letting go (no pun intended)

Unfortunately, some of us don't know what our limits are until we crash right through them (pun intented), but pushing it is a good way to raise your comfort level overall.

Of course, you can always buy one of the descender / cornering bikes coming out next season. That may help too.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by benb

Are you consciously aware of your countersteering?

There's a lot to be learned from the tenets of foundational motorcycle technique:

Slow
Look
Lean
Roll

On a bike this means:

Slow - Brake before the corner, start out not trail braking, finish your braking before you do anything with the bars

Look - Turn your head to look through the corner - Make this really significant, almost exaggerated. You're looking to the exit of the corner. Not down in front of you, etc.. This does 2 things, it puts your body in the correct posture, and it puts your eyes where they need to be to see any hazards or need to adjust your line as early as possible. This can't really be stressed enough.. when I took motorcycle training even after 10s of thousands of miles of bicycling this took huge effort and it was crazy how far they wanted you turning your head. Since I stopped motorcycling this is the thing that takes the most effort to maintain good habits.

Lean - Push on the inside bar to initiate the turn. Left turn, you push on the left bar. Right turn, you push on the right bar. Relax the pressure when you hit the desired lean angle, if your bike fits well the bike should track on rails and not try to stand up or fall down when you're doing this, then you can make very slight pressure changes to make fine changes. But if you've judged the corner correctly you won't really need to. This is all really critical if you are going through switchbacks where you have to transition L <-> R really fast.

Roll - basically pedal ASAP. It's limited compared to a motorcycle cause we have crap pedal clearance. But on a downhill gravity will do it for you.

What about when more-less in a straight line? I start to get nervy above 30mph or so, the feeling is like my bike is moving all around and I can't just relax into it. I'm thinking this is where bike fit is coming into play - maybe my weight is just all wrong in where it's being held/supported on the bike, and that's leading to instability.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Was thinking about this yesterday when doing hill repeats. I get nervous and feel completely out of control over about 30mph... and I can't seem to corner or trust my tires whatsoever.

Is it bike fit? Too narrow of handlebars? Too short of wheelbase? Bad center of gravity on the bike? What gives?

Well, I think you might be conflating a few things here. In my mind, speed doesn't necessarily equate with better. Enjoyment does.

Case in point. I went cycling with Paceliner Waldo recently. He kicked my ass going up and down. The "up" was expected as he's much more of a "greyhound" than I am. But the "down" was a little bit of a surprise. He pedaled all the way down an 11 percent grade hill.

So, I'll say this: Waldo has much bigger persimmons than myself. And he's certainly faster. But better? I don't know. With the geo of my Firefly, which puts me in a much more aggressive position, combined with the slightly longer chain stays and miraculous DA 9100 brakes, I enjoy the descents much more now. Which is much more important to me than speed.

Now, can we talk about disc brakes?

[bicycletricycle]

have you felt like this on all of your many bikes or just this current one?

Originally Posted by Clean39T

What about when more-less in a straight line? I start to get nervy above 30mph or so, the feeling is like my bike is moving all around and I can't just relax into it. I'm thinking this is where bike fit is coming into play - maybe my weight is just all wrong in where it's being held/supported on the bike, and that's leading to instability.

[nobuseri]

For me, there are just too many unknowns to risk the high speed. Sometimes it's road conditions - even if I know the road, but most of the time it's just too many unknown variables as these roads are public and not closed for my riding enjoyment.

I am sure if it were a pro race course, where the roads have been checked, cleaned and closed, then my confidence would be up and I would be open to bombing down a bit faster.

[AngryScientist]

you need to just turn your brain off.

all this mumbo jumbo thinking about fit, head tube angles, half a millimeter of stem length and other pea under the mattress nonsense is making it oo hard to descend by feel. very much like riding a moto at speed, the more you think about it, the better chance you have at effing it up.

descending well is intuitive, and takes practice and cool nerves.

i'm a hair on fire descender, and even though benb just wrote an essay on the textbook theory of handling, i never think about any of that stuff going downhill >50mph, my body just does the things it feels are correct.

a new bike is not going to help.

[XXtwindad]

One more thought: it helps to ride with someone who enjoys going downhill. Following them (even at your own pace) allows you to get out of your head.

AndySti might be a good choice

[dem]

Sounds like safe and prudent descending to me. Crashing at 50 mph in spandex is a lot worse than 30 mph. Ride your own ride.

(I'm constantly yelling at myself to be more conservative when descending!)

[FlashUNC]

Unless someone's paying you to get downhill quickly, I don't see much personal incentive for bombing a downhill.

You do you. If you have to send it downhill, then send it. But there's no harm in taking your time down it. Road rash ain't no joke.

[Clean39T]

Originally Posted by bicycletricycle

have you felt like this on all of your many bikes or just this current one?

Most. It is the rule rather than the exception. On my Kirk and other taller/larger steel bikes, the feeling has been more that the front end didn't have enough weight on it or that I was reaching out too far and didn't feel that in control - I think that was largely a fit issue specific to me, not anything to do with the design or build of the bikes.

The exceptions that come to mind are the 56.5/59 Marcelo, 57.5/59.5 Dogmas, and if I'm remembering correctly, the 58-ish Firefly. I felt quite confident on all of those, to the point where I'd be going 40+ and not realize it.