The Last Rider - Greg LeMond

[tv_vt]

Originally Posted by catchourbreath

Just finished "The Comeback" and they do go at length into the donkeys.

Check out Giorgio Furlan. I continously wondered, 'who is this guy?' around 1993-94.

[Metz]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

It seems like whenever Lemond and Armstrong are brought up there is the same discussion…who ‘really’ doped and it seems like there is no way to definitively answer that question. The “they all did it so it was a level playing field” argument might have merit but it’s far from being accepted fact that “they all did it” and it’s more an assumption. We don’t know, and will never know.

What we do know with 100% certainty is that Armstrong doped and took part in a conspiracy to cover it up. We do know for a fact that when Lemond was working to expose Armstrong’s doping that Armstrong threatened to go public with the story that Lemond had suffered sexual abuse as a boy at the hands of a relative. Armstrong was trying to shut Lemond up with this threat. We also know with certainty that Lemond decided to release the info himself instead of being bullied by Armstrong. Armstrong was hoping to shame Lemond into silence but Lemond knew there was no shame in being a victim of sexual abuse. What is shameful is threatening an abuse victim with exposure in an effort to keep them quiet about doping and the conspiracy to carry it out and cover it up.

We also know that Armstrong went to Trek and told them to kill the Lemond brand or that he would leave Trek…so Trek did Armstrong’s dirty work and killed a profitable bike brand to appease him. This of course caused both Trek and Greg Lemond to loose a huge amount of money.

We also know all about the threats to Betsy and Frankie Andreu to shut them up. And the threats to Floyd Landis…and so on.

Did Armstrong dope and lie and conspire to win the TdF? That’s a proven fact. Did Lemond and everyone else dope in their own way, in their own time?…maybe. Maybe not. No proof has been put forward. Did Armstrong prove without a shadow of a doubt what a lousy human being he is by treating Lemond and countless others the way he did? I don’t know how anyone could disagree with this. Is Armstrong continuing to profit from his literal crimes? Yes.

I was a huge Armstrong fan during his career. His race craft was the best. He could read a race like no other and it served him well. He was a staggeringly good racer and extremely entertaining to watch at the same time he’s also a despicable person who lied and bullied and threatened those around him to keep his secret covered up. He benefitted by countless millions of dollars for acting the way he did. Crime pays and it pays well.

So when I hear the “they all did it” I can’t honestly disagree when it comes to doping….but they all didn’t do all the other stuff that all too many Armstrong fans want to conveniently forget. Armstrong was a doper and for that I can forgive him. The other stuff is unforgivable.

dave

This is all that needs to be said as far as the doping conversation. Now let's get on to watching and hopefully enjoying the film.

[NHAero]

What Dave said.
Also, the level playing field viewpoint is faulty. Lance may have been the person whose body responded best to PEDs. We all know that people have different responses to all sorts of drugs.
I prefer to think Lemond was clean, because, as has been pointed out, his early amazing performance and his rapid decline are indicators, and no one has ever credibly accused him of doping.

[Nomadmax]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

It seems like whenever Lemond and Armstrong are brought up there is the same discussion…who ‘really’ doped and it seems like there is no way to definitively answer that question. The “they all did it so it was a level playing field” argument might have merit but it’s far from being accepted fact that “they all did it” and it’s more an assumption. We don’t know, and will never know.

What we do know with 100% certainty is that Armstrong doped and took part in a conspiracy to cover it up. We do know for a fact that when Lemond was working to expose Armstrong’s doping that Armstrong threatened to go public with the story that Lemond had suffered sexual abuse as a boy at the hands of a relative. Armstrong was trying to shut Lemond up with this threat. We also know with certainty that Lemond decided to release the info himself instead of being bullied by Armstrong. Armstrong was hoping to shame Lemond into silence but Lemond knew there was no shame in being a victim of sexual abuse. What is shameful is threatening an abuse victim with exposure in an effort to keep them quiet about doping and the conspiracy to carry it out and cover it up.

We also know that Armstrong went to Trek and told them to kill the Lemond brand or that he would leave Trek…so Trek did Armstrong’s dirty work and killed a profitable bike brand to appease him. This of course caused both Trek and Greg Lemond to loose a huge amount of money.

We also know all about the threats to Betsy and Frankie Andreu to shut them up. And the threats to Floyd Landis…and so on.

Did Armstrong dope and lie and conspire to win the TdF? That’s a proven fact. Did Lemond and everyone else dope in their own way, in their own time?…maybe. Maybe not. No proof has been put forward. Did Armstrong prove without a shadow of a doubt what a lousy human being he is by treating Lemond and countless others the way he did? I don’t know how anyone could disagree with this. Is Armstrong continuing to profit from his literal crimes? Yes.

I was a huge Armstrong fan during his career. His race craft was the best. He could read a race like no other and it served him well. He was a staggeringly good racer and extremely entertaining to watch at the same time he’s also a despicable person who lied and bullied and threatened those around him to keep his secret covered up. He benefitted by countless millions of dollars for acting the way he did. Crime pays and it pays well.

So when I hear the “they all did it” I can’t honestly disagree when it comes to doping….but they all didn’t do all the other stuff that all too many Armstrong fans want to conveniently forget. Armstrong was a doper and for that I can forgive him. The other stuff is unforgivable.

dave

So good, that it needs to be quoted.

[deluz]

This is great, I think Lemond is my favorite all time cyclist.
I had the privilege to ride in a race with him BITD. I think he was exceptionally gifted and did not dope but of course we can't be 100% sure.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

It seems like whenever Lemond and Armstrong are brought up there is the same discussion…who ‘really’ doped and it seems like there is no way to definitively answer that question. The “they all did it so it was a level playing field” argument might have merit but it’s far from being accepted fact that “they all did it” and it’s more an assumption. We don’t know, and will never know.

What we do know with 100% certainty is that Armstrong doped and took part in a conspiracy to cover it up. We do know for a fact that when Lemond was working to expose Armstrong’s doping that Armstrong threatened to go public with the story that Lemond had suffered sexual abuse as a boy at the hands of a relative. Armstrong was trying to shut Lemond up with this threat. We also know with certainty that Lemond decided to release the info himself instead of being bullied by Armstrong. Armstrong was hoping to shame Lemond into silence but Lemond knew there was no shame in being a victim of sexual abuse. What is shameful is threatening an abuse victim with exposure in an effort to keep them quiet about doping and the conspiracy to carry it out and cover it up.

We also know that Armstrong went to Trek and told them to kill the Lemond brand or that he would leave Trek…so Trek did Armstrong’s dirty work and killed a profitable bike brand to appease him. This of course caused both Trek and Greg Lemond to loose a huge amount of money.

We also know all about the threats to Betsy and Frankie Andreu to shut them up. And the threats to Floyd Landis…and so on.

Did Armstrong dope and lie and conspire to win the TdF? That’s a proven fact. Did Lemond and everyone else dope in their own way, in their own time?…maybe. Maybe not. No proof has been put forward. Did Armstrong prove without a shadow of a doubt what a lousy human being he is by treating Lemond and countless others the way he did? I don’t know how anyone could disagree with this. Is Armstrong continuing to profit from his literal crimes? Yes.

I was a huge Armstrong fan during his career. His race craft was the best. He could read a race like no other and it served him well. He was a staggeringly good racer and extremely entertaining to watch at the same time he’s also a despicable person who lied and bullied and threatened those around him to keep his secret covered up. He benefitted by countless millions of dollars for acting the way he did. Crime pays and it pays well.

So when I hear the “they all did it” I can’t honestly disagree when it comes to doping….but they all didn’t do all the other stuff that all too many Armstrong fans want to conveniently forget. Armstrong was a doper and for that I can forgive him. The other stuff is unforgivable.

dave

I really enjoy your non “tech writing” stuff. One of the few people in the industry (Richard Sachs and November Dave are others) that expresses opinions beyond prosaic matters of tubes and welds.

I’d never heard about LeMond’s sexual abuse and Armstrong’s role in trying to reveal it. According to this article: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...e18-story.html it was actually Landis’ manager.

Regardless, reading the article made me like LeMond even more.

[flying]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

It seems like whenever Lemond and Armstrong are brought up there is the same discussion…who ‘really’ doped and it seems like there is no way to definitively answer that question. The “they all did it so it was a level playing field” argument might have merit but it’s far from being accepted fact that “they all did it” and it’s more an assumption. We don’t know, and will never know.

What we do know with 100% certainty is that Armstrong doped and took part in a conspiracy to cover it up. We do know for a fact that when Lemond was working to expose Armstrong’s doping that Armstrong threatened to go public with the story that Lemond had suffered sexual abuse as a boy at the hands of a relative. Armstrong was trying to shut Lemond up with this threat. We also know with certainty that Lemond decided to release the info himself instead of being bullied by Armstrong. Armstrong was hoping to shame Lemond into silence but Lemond knew there was no shame in being a victim of sexual abuse. What is shameful is threatening an abuse victim with exposure in an effort to keep them quiet about doping and the conspiracy to carry it out and cover it up.

We also know that Armstrong went to Trek and told them to kill the Lemond brand or that he would leave Trek…so Trek did Armstrong’s dirty work and killed a profitable bike brand to appease him. This of course caused both Trek and Greg Lemond to loose a huge amount of money.

We also know all about the threats to Betsy and Frankie Andreu to shut them up. And the threats to Floyd Landis…and so on.

Did Armstrong dope and lie and conspire to win the TdF? That’s a proven fact. Did Lemond and everyone else dope in their own way, in their own time?…maybe. Maybe not. No proof has been put forward. Did Armstrong prove without a shadow of a doubt what a lousy human being he is by treating Lemond and countless others the way he did? I don’t know how anyone could disagree with this. Is Armstrong continuing to profit from his literal crimes? Yes.

I was a huge Armstrong fan during his career. His race craft was the best. He could read a race like no other and it served him well. He was a staggeringly good racer and extremely entertaining to watch at the same time he’s also a despicable person who lied and bullied and threatened those around him to keep his secret covered up. He benefitted by countless millions of dollars for acting the way he did. Crime pays and it pays well.

So when I hear the “they all did it” I can’t honestly disagree when it comes to doping….but they all didn’t do all the other stuff that all too many Armstrong fans want to conveniently forget. Armstrong was a doper and for that I can forgive him. The other stuff is unforgivable.

dave

Excellent post & I agree 101%

This movie could have been called The First Rider too because he really was first in many things not least of which is the aero position/bars that won him the 89 tour against Fignon by 8 seconds

[donevwil]

Originally Posted by Mike V

Looking forward to seeing this. As a young teenager in 86 he was my inspiration that got me into road racing.

https://youtu.be/9kWF4FmllqM

Pretty much ditto. A buddy bringing over a video of the '86 Tour as I recovered from a knee injury in '87 is what motivated me to take up cycling and, ultimately, start racing. We were big LeMond fanboys and headed east in '92 to follow him in the Tour duPont. Even got to ride with him in that time period (forget the year), very nice, humble guy.

Thanks for posting.

[GregL]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

I really enjoy your non “tech writing” stuff. One of the few people in the industry (Richard Sachs and November Dave are others) that expresses opinions beyond prosaic matters of tubes and welds.

I’d never heard about LeMond’s sexual abuse and Armstrong’s role in trying to reveal it. According to this article: https://www.latimes.com/archives/la-...e18-story.html it was actually Landis’ manager.

Regardless, reading the article made me like LeMond even more.

Thank you for clarifying about LeMond's extortionist (Landis' manager). As much as I don't care for Armstrong, I appreciate keeping these discussions factually accurate. Otherwise, I also concur with and very much appreciate Dave Kirk's post.

Greg

[glepore]

Originally Posted by donevwil

Pretty much ditto. A buddy bringing over a video of the '86 Tour as I recovered from a knee injury in '87 is what motivated me to take up cycling and, ultimately, start racing. We were big LeMond fanboys and headed east in '92 to follow him in the Tour duPont. Even got to ride with him in that time period (forget the year), very nice, humble guy.

Thanks for posting.

Yeah, that was a cool time. Got to swim with Kathy and the boys in Richmond, and walked right into the tt finish tent in DC.

I still can't watch the final seconds of the 89 Tour without getting emotional.

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by GregL

I can't/won't make assumptions/accusations about whether LeMond used illegal PEDs. I believe that the rise of oxygen vector doping by his competitors as well as LeMond's body suffering from the aftereffects of his shooting led to the sudden decrease in LeMond's performances.

Greg

I used to think the same about your last statement. Yet, right there at the end he was riding as stronger as ever for himself but was no longer competitive. That says it all. But yeah, things being what they are we'll never really know.

I don't think today's cycling is clean by any stretch of the imagination either but they sure are portraying it as such.

Totally looking forward to see this regardless.

[OtayBW]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

It seems like whenever Lemond and Armstrong are brought up there is the same discussion…who ‘really’ doped and it seems like there is no way to definitively answer that question.

Well said, and I agree as well, 100%.

[GregL]

Originally Posted by jamesdak

I used to think the same about your last statement. Yet, right there at the end he was riding as stronger as ever for himself but was no longer competitive. That says it all. But yeah, things being what they are we'll never really know.

I don't think today's cycling is clean by any stretch of the imagination either but they sure are portraying it as such.

Totally looking forward to see this regardless.

Cycling (and for that matter all professional sport) has never been clean. Competitors have always looked for the "unfair advantage." As other, wiser, more knowledgeable contributors to this forum have stated, it's entertainment. Enjoy the entertainment, but look elsewhere for role models and examples of ethical behavior. Looking forward to the LeMond documentary and that other piece of entertainment, the TdF (which starts one month from today).

Greg

[Mr. Pink]

Hey, since the subject is Lemond, I will share these pics of him on a penny farthing back at a bike event in Frederick, MD in 2012. It was a pretty poorly organized group ride around the area, but, they decided to add a penny farthing race in downtown Frederick as part of the event, which turned into a disaster of one rider winding up in the hospital. Here Lemond just rides the thing around the parking lot of the Holiday Inn or whatever it was that everyone was staying in. The bearded guy rode across the country on one, believe it or not. Downhills must take cajones.

Lemond was riding with a "team" at the time that advocated for child sexual abuse victims. It's on his jersey. I guess he was out and embraced this part of his past for a while. Got a few miles in with him, and watched him interact very nicely with anybody who approached him. I was impressed with his happy, unselfish demeanor.

[Blue Jays]

I eagerly look forward to seeing this movie on the big screen or on my computer.
(Paceline Forums also needs a "like" button for the fantastic and thoughtful posts!)