Wheel build... what would you do?

[madsciencenow]

Originally Posted by NHAero

It looks as though Bitex has an aluminum freehub that has a steel insert in one of the grooves to reduce bite. Seems like a good solution!

Agree! Anything to reduce bite which is inevitable w/ AL, IME.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by November Dave

The degrees of engagement are what they are and can't be changed. It's slightly quicker than White Industries 48 but nowhere near I9 Hydra (which is fundamentally instant). In my experience it's absolutely adequate for any mountain biking, but I never drank the instant engagement Kool-Aid. Certainly not on road - it's irrelevant for road use.

The anti-chew steel strip on their HG hub bodies is effective but I've seen a few instances of them coming out. Easy enough to glue back in.

If you use really any cassette format other than HG, spline chew becomes a non-issue.

For road hubs, I think the RAR12 geometry is a bit deficient but the disc hubs (106, 212) are just fine. The RAF12 rim brake front hub actually has awesome geometry at the expense of having a small bearing which is likely to require more frequent replacement.

Their machining is good, the bearing bores are consistent and good tolerance. I can't recall any flange breakages with any we've built with.

Great info, thanks so much! And to Old Potatoe as well.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by NHAero

Great info, thanks so much! And to Old Potatoe as well.

Pleasure and

For road hubs, I think the RAR12 geometry is a bit deficient but the disc hubs (106, 212) are just fine.

'About' 1mm-1.5mm flanges closer to center of hub on Bitex, depending on which you compare it to. Some almost identical. But my point is RAR-12 Bitex hubs build just fine to any rim out there. Pick the appropriate spoke dimension, spoke count and rim for the application and the wheel will be reliable, no problem. Far more wheels have issues due to poor chosen spoke type(too thin), rim type(too light) and spoke count(too few) than a millimeter or so of the hub flange

[November Dave]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Pleasure and


'About' 1mm-1.5mm flanges closer to center of hub on Bitex, depending on which you compare it to. Some almost identical. But my point is RAR-12 Bitex hubs build just fine to any rim out there. Pick the appropriate spoke dimension, spoke count and rim for the application and the wheel will be reliable, no problem. Far more wheels have issues due to poor chosen spoke type(too thin), rim type(too light) and spoke count(too few) than a millimeter or so of the hub flange

It's never caused a problem to my knowledge in one of our builds, but I really prefer to get at least 60kgf on non-drive spokes which you need to crank the drive sides to get to with RAR12s.

It's really academic now since disc brake builds have dominated our order book for 3 years now, that trend continues, and as I said their disc geometry is fine.

[xeladragon]

Originally Posted by sjbraun

Do what Old Potato says. What did he say?

Save your money and go with Bitex/Pillar.

Originally Posted by fredd

You might like this read about pillar wing vs CX rays. Might just be boyd justifying the cheaper option, but could help you rest easy after choosing pillar.

Yep, saw that and this too... https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?p=2537820

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

Translation: I already have advice from someone that builds wheels and knows what he's doing, but I want to get the opinions of some random idiots on an online forum ...

I never called anyone on this forum an idiot.

Originally Posted by mcteague

With my latest bike I got a set of BTLOS wheels using DT 240 hubs and CXRay spokes. I could afford it so why not? I can't really justify them over Bitex hubs and cheaper spokes. I do really like the simplicity of maintenance of the DT hubs though. Be warned...the new EXP freehubs are LOUD!

Yep, asking myself the same question right now. I can afford it... so do I??

Thanks for all the input so far! I can't say I'm surprised by the current poll results (almost an even split between Bitex/Pillar, DT350/Sapim, and DT240/Sapim). Sounds like I can't really go wrong with any of the options... just a matter of how much I want to spend. DT/Sapim definitely has the bling factor, but performance-wise, I doubt they'll be any faster. Maybe less maintenance required for DT hubs...

Decisions, decisions...

[robertbb]

I'm late to the party.

Note that there is a distinction between DT 350's.

The "new" 350's, I believe, are basically the "old" 240's (non-EXP) with slightly cheaper (but still good) bearings. They are matte black (anodized?) and have a waterslide white decal that is not removable.

The "old" 350's are still available if you look around. These are gloss black (painted) and have a removable sticker.

I've been hoarding the old ones because I like the removable sticker and I'm kinda weird like that - don't like branding or logo's on anything.

If that doesn't bother you, a "new" DT 350 will give you a DT 240 hub (non-EXP) at 350 prices...

[xeladragon]

Originally Posted by robertbb

I'm late to the party.

Note that there is a distinction between DT 350's.

The "new" 350's, I believe, are basically the "old" 240's (non-EXP) with slightly cheaper (but still good) bearings. They are matte black (anodized?) and have a waterslide white decal that is not removable.

The "old" 350's are still available if you look around. These are gloss black (painted) and have a removable sticker.

I've been hoarding the old ones because I like the removable sticker and I'm kinda weird like that - don't like branding or logo's on anything.

If that doesn't bother you, a "new" DT 350 will give you a DT 240 hub (non-EXP) at 350 prices...

I believe the new design you speak of is only for their MTB hubs - https://www.dtswiss.com/en/component...s/hubs-mtb/350

Road hubs haven't changed [yet] - https://www.dtswiss.com/en/component.../hubs-road/350

Currently leaning towards the 240 hubs. This wheelset would primarily be for my Firefly, which I feel like I shouldn't be too frugal with. Yes, they're more expensive, but when you amortize the cost over the next 5+ years of use, they're not that much more.

[eephotog]

Piling on, if the rar12 have "poor" geometry in the rim brake version, what are some alternatives in the same price range?

[dustyrider]

Originally Posted by xeladragon

Yes, they're more expensive, but when you amortize the cost over the next 5+ years of use, they're not that much more.

I’ve got decades on some of my dt hubs. If you amortize it by miles, they were like free at this point!

[xnetter]

Originally Posted by NHAero

How are Bitex hubs to work on and replace bearings, swap freehubs? Are parts available over time?

My personal experience with one rear Bitex RAR9 11spd hub has been pretty bad. When I received it (in the form of a custom built wheel), the freehub was slipping under load. I opened it up and was dismayed to find that two of the six nearly microscopic pawl springs were broken in half.

I contacted Bitex and got a terrible run-around in my efforts to locate replacement springs without having to purchase an entire cassette body unit. Polite but useless customer service. I eventually bought a complete set of springs and pawls from a third party vendor.

The whole pawl-return spring design in this Bitex hub is woefully flimsy. After having seen the internals, I would never recommend it to anyone. Obviously, this is a sample size of one but still - I wouldn't have confidence in the long-term durability of this design. These hubs are cheap but a more robust design like the DT is still the way to go.

KJ

[LGrider]

I just received some BTLOS wheels with 240 hubs and Pillar spokes and am kind of kicking myself for not saving over $250 by swapping to Bitex hubs.

FYI, I see BTLOS has free shipping for a limited time.

[BdaGhisallo]

No matter which hubs or spoke brand you opt for, forget about the fancy aero swaged spokes like CX-Rays for the rear wheel.

I went through a period of having some Enve rims built up with a few different hub sets, looking for the best combo. I tried rear hubs with "good" geometry and hubs with poor geometry. The only thing that ensured that the rear wheel was laterally stiff and wouldn't rub the brake pads with the slightest bit of out of the saddle effort was building with thicker spokes in the rear wheel.

Quite simply, go with more spoke material in the rear. Thicker is what you want. Stay away from the thin aero spokes because they won't make a difference back there.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by November Dave

It's never caused a problem to my knowledge in one of our builds, but I really prefer to get at least 60kgf on non-drive spokes which you need to crank the drive sides to get to with RAR12s.

It's really academic now since disc brake builds have dominated our order book for 3 years now, that trend continues, and as I said their disc geometry is fine.

Correct and ideally, I use OC rear rims. And if OC rims are available for disc, I prefer those too, regardless of hub dimensions.
I am still building many rim brake wheel sets, so not really academic for me. I build with a lot of RAR-12 hubs. Certainly small potatoes compared to youse guys but still.

[Robot870]

Originally Posted by deluz

White Industries T11

This^^

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by deluz

Some more info on Pillar spokes:

https://boydcycling.com/blogs/news/a-well-spoken-change

I am tempted to go with these on my next wheel build.

The claims about Pillar Wing 20 spokes on the Boyd blog make no sense at all. Contrary to Boyd's claims, Wing 20 spokes can not be any stiffer than Sapim CX-Ray spokes. The stiffness of a stainless steel spoke (of a given length) depends only on the cross-sectional area, and because we know that Wing 20 and CX-Ray spokes have the same weight, we know that they have the same cross-sectional area. Boyd claims that the Wing 20 spokes deflect less with their tension meter, but tension meters measure tension by applying a bending force on the spokes, whereas in the real world spokes only see axial tension forces. Wing 20 spokes are 2.0mm x 1.2mm, while CX-Rays are 2.2mm x 0.9mm. The extra thickness of Wing 20 spokes may explain the difference in tension meter bending. But tension meters don't measure wheel stiffness, so that's neither here nor there.

Boyd also makes allusion to wind tunnel tests showing that Wing 20 spokes (wit their thicker cross section) are just as aero as spokes with thinner cross sections, but do not name their sources, so it is hard to judge this claim (although common sense would tend to say that this is not likely).

Finally, in the comments section, Boyd claims that using thicker spokes on the drive side will help even out tension between drive side and the non-drive side, but this is not true - tension ratio is determined by geometry alone (spoke bracing angles), not by spoke thickness.

Looking at this blog post, I wonder how much Boyd really understands about how wheels work.