Is Dura Ace now an "Ultra Tier" Groupset?

[Davist]

Originally Posted by robertbb

I know right.

Engineers thinking cranks not snapping is a "good thing".

Idiots.

ha! I've still seen more carbon fiber cranks (SRAM, FSA and Specialized though) de-pedal insert themselves than Shimano failures and given Shimano's 98+% market share around here.. well. I know 2 people with Campy, 1 doesn't ride anymore the other hasn't had problems lol.

[batman1425]

I think it is interesting that we are finally seeing some distinct differentiation in the industry.

Campy is the only manuf to show any kind of significant investment in mechanical groups. Their stuff works well, and has a loyal enthusiast following. They never really succeeded in the electronic space but they saw where they could become the market lead in mech and are investing. People who want campy also tend to be the people that want mechanical. I think this is a good space for them to fill. I predict a lot of loyal ultegra and 105 mech riders are going to be on campy in the future.

Sram is all in on electronic. I don't see them making a new mechanical group for the road. Ever. I also predict that Sram will have an Apex level electronic offering in a product cycle or two. Same on the MTB side. I suspect a NX level axs will be around at some point. Eventually mechanical will be truly entry level only and basically just whatever sx/apex is now with subtile tweaks to keep it compatible with whatever the current gearing consumables are. I think there's also a possibility they abandon mechanical all together. They let Shimano handle the entry level OEM mech market and stick to mid/high price point OEM and aftermarket.

Shimano continues to have 1 foot in both spaces as the OEM leader but with the new DA being electronic only the is writing on the wall for the high end. Mech shifting will become increasingly down market offerings and I don't see them offering it above the tiagra level, beyond replacement parts, much longer. I can't say I blame it either when people are happy to spend the money for Di2 105.

I'm going to miss the days of 2-3K ultegra/105 privateer race bikes.

[benb]

I think we are long past the point where a lot of this is marketing and has less to do with engineering, race performance, etc.. and has more to do with marketing + designing for racing rules versus performance. For example minus the UCI weight limits I'm not sure we'd be seeing electronic being pushed as hard.

If it turned out they could still build a bike that was noticeably lighter with mechanical and it was turning out to be an advantage that would be different.

Likewise I think disc brakes might not be quite the same if the UCI weight limit was lowered. I think they are mostly there because frames have gotten so light they can use disc brakes instead of ballasting the bike. Certainly the extra weight associated with the disc brakes and their extra braking performance is superior to just putting dead weight onto a rim brake bike because it's too light.

Meanwhile in the real world some of this stuff is now about "having the fanciest bike" as opposed to the fastest bike because we are not subject to UCI limits. You can tune your own bike based on what you want... as long as all types of products stay available.

I think there are still some what ifs that could have happened. What if there was an alternative way to make a mechanical group even lighter through getting rid of steel cables in favor of some kind of composite cable? (E.x. they are not right but what if there was another formulation of something like Spectra or Dyneema that had the required characteristics and was lighter?)

If anything was actually purely about engineering and performance diamond frame bikes for road racing might have died before any of us were born.

If Campy keeps developing mechanical and SRAM/Shimano don't and then UCI rules change theoretically Campy could end up in an advantageous position for a while.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by batman1425

I think it is interesting that we are finally seeing some distinct differentiation in the industry.

Campy is the only manuf to show any kind of significant investment in mechanical groups. Their stuff works well, and has a loyal enthusiast following.

good points by you and benb!

I have no issues with Campy and think it looks quite good, but now that I have bikes with 10sp era ergo levers, I'm reminded I have some mobility/arthritis issues with my right thumb.. using the thumb lever tends to make my thumb a bit uncomfy.. and I can't remember of the newer stuff is any better in that regard (amount you have to move you thumb back from the hoods to shift).

Maybe I am destined for electronic shifting after all..

[callmeishmael]

Originally Posted by zmalwo

Funny Super Record uses more exotic, lighter, and softer materials than Dura Ace yet still ends up being heavier. It just shows Campagnolo's engineering is behind Shimano and they aren't able to shave as much weight from unnecessary parts as Shimano due to lack of good engineers.

That rather presumes scale weight is the sole measure of engineering success, doesn't it? One might alternatively argue that an extra cog, more durable components and better ergonomics are worth a weight increase that is insignificant at even the highest level.

I really like DA mechanical, and would choose it over SR if I was spending my own money, purely from a value perspective. I also think there are things that Shimano, as a rule, generally do better than Campag.

However, I wouldn't be making huge generalisations about engineering quality, or the quality of employed engineers, based only on the mass of a finished product.

[carlucci1106]

Originally Posted by vespasianus

People overlook it because it is mechanical and to many people think that is either low end or old school. The gear range and shifting of EKAR is really impressive.

Agree; I recently built out a bike for a friend with it. Everything is impressive. Every other "gravel" system has shortfalls, ATMO, especially when it comes to gear range or steps. Ekar has the range, has wicked impressive shift accuracy/speed, and has cassette options that you could swap a road wheelset in (i.e. 9-36) and essentially have one do-it-all-bike. I think people in the review media are understating it, as they cling to big "S" security blanket.

Old Spud, agree that Ultegra/DA have a yuge price gap, but my hypothesis is that with the "materials and manufacturing process differences", DA really does cost a lot to produce. I would also hypothesize Shimano takes a much smaller 'per unit' profit on OEM Ultegra, because it is designed to sell in volume. This is what someone in another thread referred to as Premium Pricing Strategy, that points the consumer toward the middle option (i.e. Ultegra), as that is what the company will ultimately profit on, even if they are taking a small hit on margin percentile.

[vespasianus]

Originally Posted by benb

I think we are long past the point where a lot of this is marketing and has less to do with engineering, race performance, etc.. and has more to do with marketing + designing for racing rules versus performance. For example minus the UCI weight limits I'm not sure we'd be seeing electronic being pushed as hard.

If it turned out they could still build a bike that was noticeably lighter with mechanical and it was turning out to be an advantage that would be different.
.

Most of the bikes at this years tour were over the UCI limit with many in the 8kg range. Weight is just one factor and not the end all be all it once was.

But I agree 100%, it is all marketing but also good business. The electronic stuff is most likely cheaper to make and requires less precise machining. And they can charge more for something that is cheaper to make. Brilliant.

What I find interesting is that I was talking with my bike shop about electronic shifting and how I thought they would loose business from those people who never need a tune up or anything like that. On the contrary, they say that those people come back more often for other things such as tires, chains, and bar tape and simple bike cleaning. Go figure.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by zmalwo

Funny Super Record uses more exotic, lighter, and softer materials than Dura Ace yet still ends up being heavier. It just shows Campagnolo's engineering is behind Shimano and they aren't able to shave as much weight from unnecessary parts as Shimano due to lack of good engineers.

My Aunt Matilda's mustache. What is something that's lighter? It's just lighter, not better. As for 'softer', is carbon fiber softer than aluminum? Didn't know that.
Is carbon fiber 'more exotic' than highly refined aluminum? Didn't know that either.
Campagnolo's engineering is 'behind' shimano's, yet Campagnolo first to 9s, 10s, 11s, 12s..hummm...
And gee, what can't shimano make a sram or Campag compatible free hub body? I guess their 'engineers' aren't up to the task, eh?

To grab one group, SR, and paint an entire company's engineering staff with that black brush is....'interesting'....

[rice rocket]

Originally Posted by batman1425

I'm going to miss the days of 2-3K ultegra/105 privateer race bikes.

But when your Sora today is better than 105 of 10 years ago, do you really need 105?

I think what's more interesting is how many bikes come with Microshift now. With Shimano losing share in entry-level mechanical, their product portfolio is being compressed and may be forced to become more niche.

[pdonk]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

But when your Sora today is better than 105 of 10 years ago, do you really need 105?

.

Old habits and thinking die hard, I am helping a buddy bike shop and I keep pushing him to stretch to 105, kind of like people pushing me to dura ace from ultegra. Maybe we need to take a closer look at sora.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by pdonk

Old habits and thinking die hard, I am helping a buddy bike shop and I keep pushing him to stretch to 105, kind of like people pushing me to dura ace from ultegra. Maybe we need to take a closer look at sora.

THIS is why I think DA (and everything else in the mix) has moved up a level.. Sora may not be the new 105, but Tiagra certainly is.. and maybe Sora is as well since there is Claris and Tourney still below it..

[charliedid]

Raw materials matter....as in just because SORA is trickle down from previous gen groups from ages ago does not mean the group is made from the same quality of materials. I've had customers buy Sora bikes as commuters (these are people who ride higher end bikes) and the quickness in which things wear out is pretty astounding. Even the quality of plastic and stamped metal seems cheeper and more flimsy.

Not all apples to apples etc.

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

I think what's more interesting is how many bikes come with Microshift now. With Shimano losing share in entry-level mechanical, their product portfolio is being compressed and may be forced to become more niche.

Microshift makes the best value components in the industry at the moment IMO. The early stuff they made, which came on some Felt Bikes as OEM BITD not so good but more recent offerings are very nice offerings for the money. A lot of folks figured this out during the worst of the shortages when Si/Sr/Ca parts were nowhere to be found but Microshift could be found easily. Some bits are even drop in replacements for other manuf. components.

[benb]

Originally Posted by vespasianus

Most of the bikes at this years tour were over the UCI limit with many in the 8kg range. Weight is just one factor and not the end all be all it once was.

But I agree 100%, it is all marketing but also good business. The electronic stuff is most likely cheaper to make and requires less precise machining. And they can charge more for something that is cheaper to make. Brilliant.

What I find interesting is that I was talking with my bike shop about electronic shifting and how I thought they would loose business from those people who never need a tune up or anything like that. On the contrary, they say that those people come back more often for other things such as tires, chains, and bar tape and simple bike cleaning. Go figure.

What's hilarious is the increase in weight for aero, but it's all super artificial aero that's not very effective because again UCI rules ban everything that's effective in such a byzantine way.

We're way down the path of NASCAR or F1 here where big development $$$$$$$$ are going into figuring out how to make things aero within the rules when the rules have basically banned all the things that would work much better but are banned.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by charliedid

Raw materials matter....as in just because SORA is trickle down from previous gen groups from ages ago does not mean the group is made from the same quality of materials. I've had customers buy Sora bikes as commuters (these are people who ride higher end bikes) and the quickness in which things wear out is pretty astounding. Even the quality of plastic and stamped metal seems cheeper and more flimsy.

Not all apples to apples etc.

for sure.. I certainly didn't mean to imply anything different.. I think Tiagra is more of the 105 replacement personally.. but I think Sora could be a great "gateway group" as someone is getting into riding and, by the time Sora would wear out, might be ready for a bike upgrade anyway.. I doubt the majority of Sora bikes are ridden as much as the commuter bikes you are describing, but I could be wrong..