Is Dura Ace now an "Ultra Tier" Groupset?

[RyanH]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Comparisons across brands is always a little silly, but Super Record EPS is still in a category on its own when it comes to price.

When I bought 9270 it was more expensive than my Super Record EPS12 Disc shift group by a few hundred dollars.

[dddd]

I tend to look at prices and weights, but which is complicated by the availability of overseas prices on certain brand's items.

I05 is suddenly a lot more expensive, and about as heavy as ever.

Among different brand's levers, the carbon brake lever blade seems to be a defined price/quality tier distinction, Chorus and 105 currently lack this.

EDIT: I think that SRAM rival uses a less-expensive reinforced thermoplastic lever, fwiw. Force's is carbon.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by RyanH

When I bought 9270 it was more expensive than my Super Record EPS12 Disc shift group by a few hundred dollars.

Was just going off of MSRP, but I suppose it's fair that street prices may differ.

[Pinned]

DA 9200 is not any nicer than 9100 in terms of build quality. It's more expensive, as is Ultegra, but neither feel more solid in hand than the outgoing generation.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Pinned

DA 9200 is not any nicer than 9100 in terms of build quality. It's more expensive, as is Ultegra, but neither feel more solid in hand than the outgoing generation.

You get one more cog and wireless shifters. Isn't that enough for one generation?

[zmalwo]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

Any pro tour rider who can win on their current bike could win on Ultegra with some other offset weight changes. (You know, like going back to rim brakes...)

i second this. there is zero performance difference between the two, only their weights are different. if a pro team mechanic and shave a few hundred grams elsewhere, there's no reason a pro can't win on ultegra. That said, ultegra front derailleurs only support up to 53t while DA support up to 55t so Ultegra might limit some pro's gearing options.

[weiwentg]

Originally Posted by fourflys

...so I wonder if Shimano has now decided to move all of their groupsets up a notch? Tiagra seems to be replacing 105 in the spaces it used to occupy (low-mid level bikes) from both a functionality and price point..

Thoughts?

This is a bit more complicated. With 105, we always knew that it would catch up to DA/Ultegra in not too long. With Tiagra, the lag is a lot longer. When I started cycling, Tiagra-DA were all at 9s. Now, Tiagra is at 10s, and 105-DA have moved to 12. I don't know how Shimano intends to treat Tiagra and mech 105 and Ultegra. That is, is Tiagra going to get moved up to 11s and to step up a notch in quality? Will they ever bring Tiagra to 12s? Or, we know that they said they intend to keep making 11s mech 105 and Ultegra for a while. Are they going to keep those groups for the price/quality points below 105 Di2 but above Tiagra?

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by weiwentg

This is a bit more complicated. With 105, we always knew that it would catch up to DA/Ultegra in not too long. With Tiagra, the lag is a lot longer. When I started cycling, Tiagra-DA were all at 9s. Now, Tiagra is at 10s, and 105-DA have moved to 12. I don't know how Shimano intends to treat Tiagra and mech 105 and Ultegra. That is, is Tiagra going to get moved up to 11s and to step up a notch in quality? Will they ever bring Tiagra to 12s? Or, we know that they said they intend to keep making 11s mech 105 and Ultegra for a while. Are they going to keep those groups for the price/quality points below 105 Di2 but above Tiagra?

Good points. I'm just hoping Shimano introduces an 11-speed mechanical rim-brake Tiagra in polished silver. Then I can stockpile 4-5 sets and be happy.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

Good points. I'm just hoping Shimano introduces an 11-speed mechanical rim-brake Tiagra in polished silver. Then I can stockpile 4-5 sets and be happy.

this is my guess.. I think Shimano will bring Tiagra up to 11sp (no idea if silver) to keep it/place it as the OEM groupset for those upper low to middle tier bikes.. I think 105 has now slotted into that spot where folks used to place Ultegra, and that spot is "why would I go higher than 105, the only difference is weight and price?"

one reason I'm thinking along this line is when I got into riding, there really wasn't anything below Tiagra that was available for a drop bar bike .. now there is Tiagra, Claris, and Tourney under 105 that you can find on a drop bar bike.

I don't put a lot of stock into what the pros ride as they will ride whatever is on their bike and since much of marketing is "race on Sunday, sell on Monday", Shimano would be idiots not to put Dura Ace on as many bikes as they could that may be in the spotlight..

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by fourflys

I don't put a lot of stock into what the pros ride as they will ride whatever is on their bike and since much of marketing is "race on Sunday, sell on Monday", Shimano would be idiots not to put Dura Ace on as many bikes as they could that may be in the spotlight..

My goal for my #1 road bike used to be "Tour de France winning 10 years ago", but even that is more than I need anymore or even want to chase.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by Pinned

DA 9200 is not any nicer than 9100 in terms of build quality. It's more expensive, as is Ultegra, but neither feel more solid in hand than the outgoing generation.

I’d have to disagree with this. The finish quality of the di2 shifters, RD and crankset in the 9200 set are noticeably better IMO than 9100.

As for feeling more “solid in hand” I felt no real difference when handling a new 9200 set in the box vs a 9100 set I had taken off.

Haven’t had the chance to handle 8100 but can’t imagine it’s any different in the finish improvements.

Def more expensive than previous gen tho.

Originally Posted by dddd

I tend to look at prices and weights, but which is complicated by the availability of overseas prices on certain brand's items.

I05 is suddenly a lot more expensive, and about as heavy as ever.

Among different brand's levers, the carbon brake lever blade seems to be a defined price/quality tier distinction, Chorus and 105 currently lack this.

EDIT: I think that SRAM rival uses a less-expensive reinforced thermoplastic lever, fwiw. Force's is carbon.

Rival axs has alloy paddles. I think Force uses the CFRP while Red uses full carbon, thus the slight weight differences in shifter assemblies.

[carlucci1106]

... tells a little story about what Shimano thinks.

A lot of YouTube videos about this, how the new 105 is on par with generations of DA from 10-12 years ago. That Shimano sequences the groups' part numbers seems to correlate with this assertion.

So, many of the Ultegra groups or yore (9/10/11sp) started off with a 6xxx- designation. 6500, the classic silver 9v, 6700, the ice grey 10sp, then 6800, before Shim introduced the radical new FD swingarm with more leverage than ever. Notice with this improvement (and shadow RD, new Optislick cables, etc.) the Ultegra now moves into the R-8000 designation.

Well DA 9v, was 7700, so we can assume in Shimano's eyes, the tech from the latest gen of 11 speed Ult is superior to 9v AND 10v (R-7900) Dura Ace.

Concurrent to this is the shift of 105 from the high 5xxx realm, to R-7000 when moved to 11sp, and then a further bump to 7100 with Di2. So new 105 Di2 is more tech advanced than 1st gen of Ultegra 11sp, without doubt. It is also only 100pts away from the original DA with this number schema, R-7200 (Edit: there was a DA track group released in 1977 called R-7100, one year prior to R-7200 Dura Ace).

Dura Ace will always push the numbers higher, and trickle down the tech. Has it ALWAYS been a halo?- I believe "yes," because it is the group where all the innovation is pushed forward. But now that many are priced out of this latest iteration, some want to say that something has changed. What's changed is the rate at which the innovations are rolled out. Remember DA 7700 lasted from roughly 1996-2004. (sometimes) More than double what it takes to roll out a completely revised group today. So with innovation, comes increased cost- exacerbated by a supply chain shortage, as those tech advances come harder and faster at us.

ATMO, SRAM and Campagnolo (to some degree) do this too. Having EPS only in SR seems to hint toward this. Is EPS more 'halo' because it is more expensive than R-9200? Dunno. SRAM Red was the lone group with eTap for some time before it trickled down. Same playbook. Is Red AXS expensive and unnecessary for most mortals? Probably. But the current prices are extremely overinflated, and I believe will level with time.

Long live the halo group!

[RobbieTunes]

While they are meant to compete with other brands, competing with each other is also in the mix. It’s performance, parameters, price point.

My experience:
DA > SR
DA > Record
Ultegra = Chorus, both, to me, are value options.
105= Centaur
Tiagra = Veloce
Sora = Mirage

The 10-speed 1st Gen Centaur was as good as 9-speed Ultegra.

8-speed Ultegra was as good as 8-speed Dura Ace.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by carlucci1106

But now that many are priced out of this latest iteration, some want to say that something has changed.

that's a pretty "interesting" way to look at it.. if I understand your meaning here that folks want to make it something it isn't (maybe my assertion of an ultra tier groupset) because they can't afford it.. if I misunderstood, my apologies.. while price certainly figures in to an "ultra tier" groupset, the fact that someone could afford it our not is moot in my opinion..

Some will always buy DA/SR because it's the best, whether they need it/can benefit from it or not.. and that's fine. I could pony up for DA if I really wanted it that bad, it just doesn't make sense for me as I know I wouldn't get near the added benefit of the set compared to 105 or Ultegra.. and I don't need to flash the coffee shop bling like some.. but I also agonize over buying new vs. used because of the value proposition, so there's that..

And I still put SR as an Ultra Tier groupset based on the fact that Record was akin to DA or Red, while SR didn't really seem to have a direct competitor.. I think maybe it does now with the new DA (while Ultegra has moved up to Varsity to compete with Record and Red)

long live pragmatism!

[carlucci1106]

Originally Posted by fourflys

that's a pretty "interesting" way to look at it.. if I understand your meaning here that folks want to make it something it isn't (maybe my assertion of an ultra tier groupset) because they can't afford it.. if I misunderstood, my apologies..

long live pragmatism!

Yes, I think my perspectives are changing over the years, but I think the marketing machine has helped to solidify what we always sorta knew....

Yes, I meant to say that the current iteration with the prices spiraling out of control, seem to some that Dura Ace is something it's not. And what it isn't is some meaningless superceding of Ultegra that only focuses on weight, aesthetics, and branding- to give to WorldTourTeams.

It is the storyboard for the brand's advancement in tech, and that has not changed. How we approach it has. Because, at a lot of our levels of experience in this bike world, we have used components, many of us, back 20-50 years ago, and have appreciated how the function has come a long way. Do we need Di2 to shift 40% faster, and braking to be slightly more controlled at speeds 60+ mph? Some of us do, who race at elite levels, but most of us would be extremely happy on R-9100 or Camp Rec/Chor, mechanical the rest of our riding years. Why pay for something that doesn't have a substantial advantage? It looks good, shifts gears, and stops impeccably.

The advancements are divergent now... You either want to go with the disc/Aero/electric gadgetry or stay with Mechanical, but you can get the same performance give or take, with a vastly different build ethos, and final cost. But we're in a paradigm shift where the old tech is more reliable, and arguably more attractive to the classic eye. Meaning us.

R-9200 is saying "hey people, this is where the future is going." I don't know if someday we'll all taste the electronic/disc Kool-Aid, and consider these mechanical/rim bikes "relics," or not. But the two big "S" co. are clearly on that wavelength.

Now Campy is a little different, ATMO. The Super Record sought to "enhance" where Record had sat, and I truly believe that with its price and improvements in mainly the area of weight, made it an ultra-tier group. Campy's latest advancement, Ekar, was in the mechanical realm. That's weird, and cool in today's E-whizbangery-disc-electro-aero World.