Is Dura Ace now an "Ultra Tier" Groupset?

[fourflys]

So I perusing the forum and was reading a wheelset recommendation thread and someone mentioned Ultegra carbon wheels.. decided to search them up and found there is now a 105 carbon wheelset as well..

got me wondering if 105 has now slotted into the space that Ultegra has occupied until the release of 105 Di2?

Bear with me here.. With Campy, you have Record and Super Record.. Old Potatoe commented on a thread a while back stating that Chorus was not a 105 competitor, but more of an Ultegra level.. that would make Record a DA competitor and Super Record having no competitor.. so I wonder if Shimano has now decided to move all of their groupsets up a notch? Tiagra seems to be replacing 105 in the spaces it used to occupy (low-mid level bikes) from both a functionality and price point..

Thoughts?

[robt57]

I am with you on this, my impressions etc.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by fourflys

So I perusing the forum and was reading a wheelset recommendation thread and someone mentioned Ultegra carbon wheels.. decided to search them up and found there is now a 105 carbon wheelset as well..

got me wondering if 105 has now slotted into the space that Ultegra has occupied until the release of 105 Di2?

Bear with me here.. With Campy, you have Record and Super Record.. Old Potatoe commented on a thread a while back stating that Chorus was not a 105 competitor, but more of an Ultegra level.. that would make Record a DA competitor and Super Record having no competitor.. so I wonder if Shimano has now decided to move all of their groupsets up a notch? Tiagra seems to be replacing 105 in the spaces it used to occupy (low-mid level bikes) from both a functionality and price point..

Thoughts?

Pretty much agree. Would also say that the mechanical GRX options are also in mix
DA Di2 -> Super DA Di2
Ultegra Di2 -> DA Di2
105 Di2 -> Ultegra Di2
GRX Di2 -> Ultegra Di2 w/ clutch
GRX 800 -> Ultegra Mech
GRX 600 -> 105 Mech

Tiagra and GRX 400 are the sub-$1800 full bike options given they're 10s

[zap]

Based on my experience I would place Chorus (mechanical) slightly above Ultegra. Record-DA ok sure.

Campagnolo needs to update electronic groupsets pronto.


edited.

Originally Posted by fourflys

Old Potatoe commented on a thread a while back stating that Chorus was not a 105 competitor, but more of an Ultegra level.. that would make Record a DA competitor and Super Record having no competitor.. so I wonder if Shimano has now decided to move all of their groupsets up a notch?

Thoughts?

[prototoast]

Comparisons across brands is always a little silly, but Super Record EPS is still in a category on its own when it comes to price.

Within a given brand's offerings, I think there are generally two types of cyclists--those who view groupsets from the top down, and those who view it from the bottom up.

For the top-down cyclists, whatever is the top is always the best, and everything is a step down from that. An "ultra tier" doesn't really make sense, because there can only be one top tier no matter what.

For the bottom-up cyclist, it's more about how far up the chain do you have to go to get to the features you want. Dura Ace used to be 10 speeds, now you can get 10 speeds from Tiagra. Ultegra used to be the entry-point for electronic shifting, now you can get electronic shifting from 105. On every metric but weight, 105 di2 is better than every Shimano groupset from previous generations. But if you're a weightweenie, Dura Ace 9000 is the pinnacle of Shimano's offerings, and Red 22 still dominates them all.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by zap

Based on my experience I would place Chorus (mechanical) slightly above Ultegra. Record-DA ok sure.

^^^^ This was true for quite a while, but that became a bit of a problem for Campagnolo. Chorus was a little too close to Record, without a enough distinction between them. For the latest groups, Campagnolo purposely chosen to down-market Chorus a bit, which not only makes a clearer distinction between Chorus and Record, but also moves Chorus a little closer comparison to Ultegra.

[AngryScientist]

IMO, you have to look to the pro ranks to decide.

For a while, in the TDF peloton for example, you would have pros riding both Record and SR groups, which for me indicates Record is top tier and SR is icing on the cake.

Are any pro tour riders riding Ultegra?

[robt57]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

Pretty much agree. Would also say that the mechanical GRX options are also in mix

Maybe GRX 810=Ekar?

[DMC707]

Campagnolo has always been quite the conundrum because in terms of aesthetic beauty and build quality , Athena , Chorus and - obviously Record were all on par with Dura Ace. (Talking older groups)

The forgings just all looked second to none across the board

while back then Shimano finished their parts in far more economical fashion - lots of painted bits and pieces and even the polishing on a 600 tri-color crankset appears a lot more dull than its Athena or Chorus competitor

Chorus was priced close to Dura Ace too, with Record always being the most expensive option

I didnt understand how that marketing worked, --- but then again, Campagnolo never seemed to be driving hard at the OEM markets .



I really dont know where i'm going with this -- merely to say that Record has always seemed to be a step above -- not necessarily in performance at all - but it still has to perform

[72gmc]

I don’t think Campagnolo ever tried to make sense vis-a-vis the Shimano tiers. Heart approach vs head approach.

[Mikej]

No

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by 72gmc

I don’t think Campagnolo ever tried to make sense vis-a-vis the Shimano tiers. Heart approach vs head approach.

I guess I wasn't really trying to out them head to head (Campy and Shimano), just more of a way to differentiate and rank I guess..

Someone asked if you see Ultegra in the Pro Tour? I think you do on some of the lower teams or lower rider's bike on top teams..

One thing to think about is the fact there isn't a Dura Ace level GRX group.. if Shimano wanted a vis-a-vis between their road and gravel (maybe they don't?), I would assume they would have a GRX 9xx because I bet it would sell.. but I bet they want Dura Ace to occupy a hallowed ground for only the very top spec'd road bikes (or something like that)..

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

Are any pro tour riders riding Ultegra?

Any pro tour rider who can win on their current bike could win on Ultegra with some other offset weight changes. (You know, like going back to rim brakes...)

[GonaSovereign]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

IMO, you have to look to the pro ranks to decide.

Are any pro tour riders riding Ultegra?

Regularly enough. On TT bikes, and the conti-level teams use it of course. Milan-Turin was won on Ultegra some years ago.

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

Are any pro tour riders riding Ultegra?

Found a few articles about women’s teams (FDJ, Astana) using it on race bikes in the last few years, and EF using it on training bikes. Would be interesting to see how many pros use it on training bikes as everyone scrambles for parts.