Now I understand eBikes (and why that's ok)

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

So then you agree that e-bikes are motorized vehicles? But I'm not sure how the concept has changed that much. Moving the motor power control from the wrist to the pedals doesn't change the basic concept. And just because some e-bikes are low power, doesn't mean all e-bikes (see below).

Yeah, they have a motor. But the concept of a motorized vehicle has changed. Ebikes don't blow out noxious gas, don't make loud noises, and 99% (probably more) are governed.

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Regardless of what you think of it, it is still an e-bike. It is available to buy, and legal to own and operate. You seem to be clinging to the narrow notion of road e-bike classification, but those classifications don't apply to makers of off-road e-bikes. Regardless of what you picture an MTB e-bike to be, as soon as you let e-bikes onto areas prohibited to non-motorized vehicles you open up the doors to those who have a different idea of what e-bike can be. This is a slippery slope, one best not to start down it, lest we be unable to stop the slide.

The road classification is the majority of eMTB's. Therefore, we have a standard that positions an ebike not to be a rocket ship. A simple study of trail use would most likely show that the fastest, unsafe speeds on trails result from either MTBs and eMTBs heading downhill which can be concluded that eMTBs are no more dangerous than MTBs. I am sure Specialized, Trek, Giant along with LEO can stop the slide of bikes like Cab Recons from affecting the eMTB market in a negative way.

Originally Posted by Mark McM

So, you're idea of negotiating disputes with other trail users, who think that
bikes travel too fast and cover too much ground, is to allow motorized
bikes that can go faster and cover more ground? Where trail access for bicycles is tenuous, I see trying to include motorized bicycles as cause for some to push back against bicycles even harder. It takes only e-bike like the Cab Recon to show up at an area to get all bicycles banned from that area.

My idea is to normalize eMTBs, show that they are as safe as MTBs, open the tent to new people to help with advocacy. I think there is a recent example of how big tents can defeat even the most zealous advocates.

[KJMUNC]

I was not familiar with those CAB Recons.....WTH?! Their website shows them racing against 450cc motorcycles, they start with a key (ignore the fact that they're designed to LOOK like a motorcycle), and they're more of a throttle-bike with pedals (in case you want to pedal), vs. an e-MTB, which is pedal assisted, but only to a certain extent.

I respect the issue that it's hard to segment these things in a way that allows the "bikes with some extra oomph for hills" to be allowed yet still excluded electric dirtbikes, which is basically what that CAB thing is.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by KJMUNC

I was not familiar with those CAB Recons.....WTH?! Their website shows them racing against 450cc motorcycles, they start with a key (ignore the fact that they're designed to LOOK like a motorcycle), and they're more of a throttle-bike with pedals (in case you want to pedal), vs. an e-MTB, which is pedal assisted, but only to a certain extent.

I respect the issue that it's hard to segment these things in a way that allows the "bikes with some extra oomph for hills" to be allowed yet still excluded electric dirtbikes, which is basically what that CAB thing is.

The Cab Recon is just one of many higher power offroad e-bikes. Apparantly there is another class of e-bikes called the Hunting E-bike, used by hunters to truck their gear in and out of the woods:

https://ebikegeneration.com/blogs/ne...bikes-for-2019

[KJMUNC]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

The Cab Recon is just one of many higher power offroad e-bikes. Apparantly there is another class of e-bikes called the Hunting E-bike, used by hunters to truck their gear in and out of the woods:

https://ebikegeneration.com/blogs/ne...bikes-for-2019

Yeah I’ve seen those....was hiking along the Missouri River over Xmas and got passed by a guy on one like that. Guess my take is that these guys are never going to be hauling on pedal bikes: their alternative is a gas powered quad. Would rather see them on a bike with a smaller footprint than a quad.

[dem]

Originally Posted by joosttx

<snip>

My idea is to normalize eMTBs, show that they are as safe as MTBs, open the tent to new people to help with advocacy. I think there is a recent example of how big tents can defeat even the most zealous advocates.

Where are you riding, joosttx?

Down in santa cruz county, eMTBs have turned the trails into overcrowded motorcycle parks. I don't even bother riding those trails any more - they are swamped, torn up, and full of motocross riding with tons of illegal/modified/over powered eMTBs. Scruz is a bit of wild wild west since many of the trails are already illegal, but I could definitely see it being the future where eMTBs takeover in other populated areas.

Basically motorcycles take over - they're faster, more powerful and cover many times more miles than other trail users. I've no interest in riding (or worse, hiking) sharing trails with motorcycles.

[joosttx]

Originally Posted by dem

Where are you riding, joosttx?

Down in santa cruz county, eMTBs have turned the trails into overcrowded motorcycle parks. I don't even bother riding those trails any more - they are swamped, torn up, and full of motocross riding with tons of illegal/modified/over powered eMTBs. Scruz is a bit of wild wild west since many of the trails are already illegal, but I could definitely see it being the future where eMTBs takeover in other populated areas.

Basically motorcycles take over - they're faster, more powerful and cover many times more miles than other trail users. I've no interest in riding (or worse, hiking) sharing trails with motorcycles.

I agree motorcycles suck on hiking trails. I ride in Marin.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by joosttx

I agree motorcycles suck on hiking trails. I ride in Marin.

But that's what eBikes are, my friend. A "cycle" with a "motor."

[Jad]

As an add-on here (and apologies in advance if this has been covered), I wonder what the environmental impact is with growing/grown Ebike sales.

A big part of why I enjoy riding my bike is that it's human-powered, and I feel it works well as an activity that gets me to places I think are beautiful. Because it's relatively low-impact on a variety of levels, it allows me to appreciate the place I'm in and also feel ok about the footprint (tire print?) I leave as part of the process.

Is anyone familiar with how consumption of batteries works as a matter of waste production?

[buddybikes]

good article: https://www.singletracks.com/environ...attery-expert/

Originally Posted by Jad

As an add-on here (and apologies in advance if this has been covered), I wonder what the environmental impact is with growing/grown Ebike sales.

A big part of why I enjoy riding my bike is that it's human-powered, and I feel it works well as an activity that gets me to places I think are beautiful. Because it's relatively low-impact on a variety of levels, it allows me to appreciate the place I'm in and also feel ok about the footprint (tire print?) I leave as part of the process.

Is anyone familiar with how consumption of batteries works as a matter of waste production?

[Jad]

Thanks for the article, Steveandbarb1. It seems like a good primer on how we get batteries for bikes and what we do with them when we're done. I hope the recycling scene does have real potential--whether direct, hydro, or pyromettalurgy. But of course, the source here is a growing recycler.

I know Ebikes facilitate more trips (and fun) down trails, among other things. But I think it's at least important to consider how important those extra trips down are in the context of batteries' environmental effects. For example, is getting more runs in important enough to support more battery production? I don't think this is that simple a question; my mother and father each have an Ebike, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.

There are certainly other important reasons for using Ebikes, and their potential role in ultimately reducing emissions, if that's their use, could be exciting.

[buddybikes]

I am awaiting my Alchemy gravel e-bike (built for me), do I feel guilty. Not at all. I will be able to extend my riding time, and when I am not feeling well (major back issues) I know I can get home. Also, trips to stores in town can quickly be done.

I would say a 5lb battery has bit less impact than a car (12 v or power) and eventually - years down, I will recycle.

[KJMUNC]

when this is listed in the CL "bikes for sale" section as a "mountain bike", we have a problem

https://sandiego.craigslist.org/csd/...289698479.html

[Jad]

Originally Posted by steveandbarb1

I am awaiting my Alchemy gravel e-bike (built for me), do I feel guilty. Not at all. I will be able to extend my riding time, and when I am not feeling well (major back issues) I know I can get home. Also, trips to stores in town can quickly be done.

I would say a 5lb battery has bit less impact than a car (12 v or power) and eventually - years down, I will recycle.

As with so many other things, this is a benefit/cost question--certainly not a guilt/innocence one, though I understand why you mention that. More importantly, I think it's a matter of thinking about how and why we might use Ebikes. It's cool that you've been so thoughtful about the Alchemy--it sounds like it will be really valuable for you in a bunch of ways. Keep us posted!