Trek-Segafredo disagrees with SRAM AXS gearing

[Mark McM]

Not in so many words, but if you read between the lines in this Velonews article, Trek-Segafredo doesn't think the 10 tooth sprocket (found on SRAM AXS cassettes) makes any sense for them. I and a number of others have questioned SRAM's use of 10 sprockets, and it looks like Trek-Segafredo is questioning it as well.

From the article:

Unlike Movistar, which is using SRAM groupsets for the first time this season, the Trek-Segafredo team – which made the switch from Shimano to SRAM at the start of 2019 – will have an option of using larger chainrings in 2020. This is a team initiative, as SRAM’s road cycling marketing manager, Jason Phillips, explains: “Trek-Segafredo approached us and asked if we could supply chainrings in, let’s say, a ‘more traditional’ size. We were happy to oblige and riders can now select a 54/41 front combination.”

This ratio option not currently available for public purchases, or even the Movistar team. One of the key features of the AXS groupset, launched in February last year, is that it boasts a 12-speed cassette with a 10-tooth smallest cog. The 10 remains on the Trek-Segafredo bikes that have been fitted with the 54/41 front option – including Richie Porte’s Emonda frame and Mads Pedersen’s custom-coloured Madone. “It translates, roughly, to around the same roll-out as a 57-11,” said SRAM’s team liaison officer, former pro cyclist, Thorsten Wilhelm.

Thorsten Wilhelm's math is wrong - a 54-10 combination is more like a 60-11 (or a 65-12). These are really huge gears, and are unlikely to be used much at all. Instead, what is implied is that they don't really intend to use the 10 tooth sprocket at all, and instead treat the 12spd cassettes that start with a 10t as 11spd cassettes that start with an 11t. If they really believed that riders could use 60-11 gear ratios, they would have already been using huge chainrings.

[FlashUNC]

James Huang reported much the same over at CyclingTips.

Much ado about nothing I think since they're an outlier amongst the rest of the AXS teams these days. Even the Trek Segafredo women's team was on their bog standard chainrings.

[John H.]

Makes me wonder if they block out the 10 cog?

[AngryScientist]

a ten only becomes useful in certain 1x set-ups. i wouldnt want one in a 2x either, but i'm slow and lazy. if i'm going 40+ mph - i'm coasting!

[Mark McM]

I hadn't seen the CyclingTips article before, but having now read it, I pretty much agree with Huang.

Oddly, the Trek-Segafredo's using only 11 sprockets of the AXS 12spd cassette usage might actually improve performance slightly - on the AXS cassette, the 11t sprocket is in the 2nd position, so there is less chain offset, decreasing drivetrain friction a tiny bit over using a traditional 11spd cassette where the 11t sprocket is in 1st position (and has more chain offset).

[saab2000]

I haven’t looked much into this but when the groups came out I hated the idea of a 10-tooth cog.

An 11-tooth makes little sense for most riders, let alone a 10. The whole thing was for gram counters, not serious cyclists.

I like my 53x12-28 or 50x11-28.

Leave the 54x11s for the Sagans of the world and the 60x11s for some seriously genetically engineered cyclists of the future.

[dddd]

Originally Posted by saab2000

I haven’t looked much into this but when the groups came out I hated the idea of a 10-tooth cog.

An 11-tooth makes little sense for most riders, let alone a 10. The whole thing was for gram counters, not serious cyclists.

I like my 53x12-28 or 50x11-28.

Leave the 54x11s for the Sagans of the world and the 60x11s for some seriously genetically engineered cyclists of the future.

I agree, Shimano's 12-28t D-A cassette offers a great gearing range and with modest gaps in the gearing, but sadly they only offer this one at the pricey D-A level.

Mention of the chainline had me doubting, since it is the big end of the cassette where the chainline imposes the greater cross-chaining angle in most cases (especially where sporting cyclists use the big ring almost all of the time). Also, at the highest speeds (where the 11t/12t cogs would be used), only about half of the % speed increase resulting from a proportional power increase is realized, due to aero losses. So the chainline optimized for the small end of the cassette offers only half of much extra speed/power as compared to being optimized at the bigger end of the cassette in terms of elapsed time gained (assuming a more-or-less normal degree of undulation to the road's topography)
I still can't rule out that at some point (and helped by the adoption of electronic shifting), additional 3rd and 4th chainrings might be added and marketed to exploit possible reductions in chainline friction that would mathematically far outweigh their aero and weight penalty. Once 1x has peaked in the marketplace, I predict this will be the way forward (everywhere but in the fat-tire world of course).

Of course in pro racing there will be event- and stage-specific gearing strategies that would never make sense to most of us, such as when trying to give their fastest riders a speed edge while leading a team time-trial. I could see how in such an instance, that a less-efficient 10t cog might not fit in with their best-time strategy.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by saab2000

I haven’t looked much into this but when the groups came out I hated the idea of a 10-tooth cog.

An 11-tooth makes little sense for most riders, let alone a 10. The whole thing was for gram counters, not serious cyclists.

I like my 53x12-28 or 50x11-28.

Leave the 54x11s for the Sagans of the world and the 60x11s for some seriously genetically engineered cyclists of the future.

As someone's whose stock and trade online is hyperbole, I think this is some pretty far end of the curve statements.

Gearing like all things is dependent on where you are. I definitely get use out of a 46 or 48x10 around here. There's a use case for it.

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

As someone's whose stock and trade online is hyperbole, I think this is some pretty far end of the curve statements.

Gearing like all things is dependent on where you are. I definitely get use out of a 46 or 48x10 around here. There's a use case for it.

Yes, if we ignore the mechanical losses in smaller cogs. I’m no engineer but this is what I’m told.

I’ll say no more than that because I know no more. But I think it’s all smoke and mirrors and marketing. I’m quite certain with my 53/12x12/28 I’m quite relevant and far more so than in my youth with many fewer total ratios. And I’m far less strong today than in my youth.

We have it good these days. Ride what we like.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by saab2000

Yes, if we ignore the mechanical losses in smaller cogs. I’m no engineer but this is what I’m told.

I’ll say no more than that because I know no more. But I think it’s all smoke and mirrors and marketing. I’m quite certain with my 53/12x12/28 I’m quite relevant and far more so than in my youth with many fewer total ratios. And I’m far less strong today than in my youth.

We have it good these days. Ride what we like.

While I won't discount the engineers, in the real world I notice zero difference and tend to think it's totally overblown. Maybe it matters to Trek Segafredo sprinters at the tip of the spear in a flat race like TDU, but didn't seem to hold Ruth Winder back at all.

But hey, it's not for serious cyclists after all...

[bfd]

Does anyone know if Sram axs 12 is compatible with Campy12? I have an etap 11 drivetrain and use Campy 11 wheels including Chorus 11 12-29 cassette.

Not being a racer, I see no reason why I should get a 10t cog. Heck, I don’t even need an 11t cog, so maybe I’ll stick to 11 speed where I can get a 12-29 or even 12-32 cassette.

Thanks

[saab2000]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

While I won't discount the engineers, in the real world I notice zero difference and tend to think it's totally overblown. Maybe it matters to Trek Segafredo sprinters at the tip of the spear in a flat race like TDU, but didn't seem to hold Ruth Winder back at all.

But hey, it's not for serious cyclists after all...

I mostly mean that for most cyclists, most of the time, a 10-tooth cog is a wasted gear and nothing more than a spacer, reducing it to an 11-speed. The compact and sub-compact cranks are for weight reduction.

Of course it’s a serious group set for serious cyclists. I typed poorly. But in the absence of personal choice WRT gearing and cassette size it’s likely not for me. I’ve seen it in person and it’s a nice group. But not my choice with these gearing options.

[simonov]

Originally Posted by saab2000

I mostly mean that for most cyclists, most of the time, a 10-tooth cog is a wasted gear and nothing more than a spacer, reducing it to an 11-speed. The compact and sub-compact cranks are for weight reduction.

Of course it’s a serious group set for serious cyclists. I typed poorly. But in the absence of personal choice WRT gearing and cassette size it’s likely not for me. I’ve seen it in person and it’s a nice group. But not my choice with these gearing options.

Keep in mind the chainrings on the standard setup are much smaller than with traditional gearing. You can't look at the 10 as "10" like it's paired with a 53-tooth ring (again, on the standard setup).

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Not in so many words, but if you read between the lines in this Velonews article, Trek-Segafredo doesn't think the 10 tooth sprocket (found on SRAM AXS cassettes) makes any sense for them. I and a number of others have questioned SRAM's use of 10 sprockets, and it looks like Trek-Segafredo is questioning it as well.

From the article:



Thorsten Wilhelm's math is wrong - a 54-10 combination is more like a 60-11 (or a 65-12). These are really huge gears, and are unlikely to be used much at all. Instead, what is implied is that they don't really intend to use the 10 tooth sprocket at all, and instead treat the 12spd cassettes that start with a 10t as 11spd cassettes that start with an 11t. If they really believed that riders could use 60-11 gear ratios, they would have already been using huge chainrings.

I'm surprised sram isn't pushing a 1by for these guys..that's what they want to sell, after all.

[GScot]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I'm surprised sram isn't pushing a 1by for these guys..that's what they want to sell, after all.

1by with the 12 speed cassette on a two speed hub and they'll really be on to something.