OT: Electric Hummer

[MattTuck]

Originally Posted by adub

I'm all for the development of EV's, but gluttony is gluttony. When you have an EV that likely uses 3x the resources to build and operate compared to something more modest it kinda trumps the reason to own one, IMO...

That comes off as a bit paternalistic.

[dancinkozmo]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

That comes off as a bit paternalistic.

maybe...but he's right.
no matter how you slice it hummers are stupid

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by NHAero

I'm curious about how those advocating hydrogen here see it being generated, transported to fueling stations, and transferred and stored in vehicle "tanks". Are we envisioning multi-thousand psi storage tanks? Some type of liquified storage? Another type of chemical carrier?

There are a number of options, and the final infrastructure solution(s) would depend on a number of practical matters. As you allude, hydrogen isn't easy to store (long term) or to transport. However, hydrogen can be generated from any number of sources, so it could be generated at locaizedl distribution points - maybe right at the filling station. This would mean only limited amounts would have to stored and only for a short period of time. The temporary storage would probably not have to be at excessive pressure, either, as it could be compressed just before it was pumped into the vehicle*. There is also work being done on using materials that readily absorb and release hydrogen, so that hydrogen gas did not have to stored at high pressure. I'm not sure this a practical solution for large density storage, but could be an option where high pressure storage is not practical.

*This is currently how 'fuel' is delivered to natural gas vehicles. Natural gas is delivered to the fueling station at low pressure the same as it is delivered to homes for heating and cooking, then it is compressed to a high pressure in a local temporary holding tank to be ready to be transferred to the vehicle.

[Llewellyn]

Originally Posted by dancinkozmo

maybe...but he's right.
no matter how you slice it hummers are stupid

And about as attractive as a feral bush pig.

[oldpotatoe]

300mile range seems to be the magic goal. It's not practical as a mainstream car yet, but for how most use a car, in the city it works.

It's interesting that this seems to be the 'goal' but it never mentions if a charging station is available at the end of that trip...Sure, an EV could get me to my Rx at the USAF Academy but, what then...??? And that 'magic' number is when it's not too warm or cold, the conditions are perfect for the EV..kinda like 'mileage' posted on the cars 'sticker'...

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

There are a number of options, and the final infrastructure solution(s) would depend on a number of practical matters. As you allude, hydrogen isn't easy to store (long term) or to transport. However, hydrogen can be generated from any number of sources, so it could be generated at locaizedl distribution points - maybe right at the filling station. This would mean only limited amounts would have to stored and only for a short period of time. The temporary storage would probably not have to be at excessive pressure, either, as it could be compressed just before it was pumped into the vehicle*. There is also work being done on using materials that readily absorb and release hydrogen, so that hydrogen gas did not have to stored at high pressure. I'm not sure this a practical solution for large density storage, but could be an option where high pressure storage is not practical.

*This is currently how 'fuel' is delivered to natural gas vehicles. Natural gas is delivered to the fueling station at low pressure the same as it is delivered to homes for heating and cooking, then it is compressed to a high pressure in a local temporary holding tank to be ready to be transferred to the vehicle.

I suppose I could google-foo it but is the energy(electricity) to produce hydrogen more or less than the energy provided by hydrogen? In other words, is hydrogen just another way of saying 'gasoline'..rather than just using the 'source'(electricity) to power a vehicle, rather than using the 'source' to make another fuel??

[alancw3]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I suppose I could google-foo it but is the energy(electricity) to produce hydrogen more or less than the energy provided by hydrogen? In other words, is hydrogen just another way of saying 'gasoline'..rather than just using the 'source'(electricity) to power a vehicle, rather than using the 'source' to make another fuel??

Peter I think you are missing something here. first hydrogen is a zero emission fuel and what about the energy, fossil, coal or whatever that is needed to produce electricity for storage batteries?

[alancw3]

you guys need to watch this documentary movie:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Who_Ki...lectric_Car%3F

It addresses how big oil seriously curtailed the treat of hydrogen cars. again. money money money. I don't know if hydrogen is better or worse than electric cars but i don't think it was given a fair chance as a viable alternation to gas. I think that it is unconsciously that big oil was allowed to control and affect our lives that way. whatever, I will never buy another ICE powered vehicle. just saying.

[smontanaro]

Just started listening to the Drilled podcast. Seems worth a listen...

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I suppose I could google-foo it but is the energy(electricity) to produce hydrogen more or less than the energy provided by hydrogen? In other words, is hydrogen just another way of saying 'gasoline'..rather than just using the 'source'(electricity) to power a vehicle, rather than using the 'source' to make another fuel??

This depends on what method is used to generate the hydrogen. For electrolysis (using electricity to split water into hydrogen and oxygen) the hydrogen becomes a temporary energy storage medium for electricity, which must itself be generated some other way. Obviously, with electrolysis you don't get more energy out of the hydrogen than you put in (that would be perpetual motion), and due to inefficiencies/entropy, there is actually an energy loss. Electrolysis is about 80% efficient (as compared to charging Li-Ion batteries, which is about 90% efficient).

However, a less expensive source of hydrogen is from natural gas by using a process called steam reforming, in which hydrogen is extracted from methane (chemical formula CH4, the main component of natural gas). In this method you get far more energy out than you put in. Unfortunately, the traditional process of natural gas steam reformation has CO2 as the byproduct, but work is being done on new processes which don't produce CO2.

[josephr]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

I am not an expert, but from the press I've read about EVs it seems like the weak point now is the lithium ion battery chemistry. I am not sure it makes sense to invest heavily in this technology when it seems that some other chemistries could be around the corner.

Perhaps they design the vehicles to be chemistry independent, figuring they can just put in a new battery whenever the chemistry goes mainstream.

I have read some other reports that there is the potential for radical improvements in the electric motors as well. Very interesting though.

I am writing a case study right now on GM's retreat from Europe and EV production was one of the things they wanted to invest their proceeds into. If this is partly the fruit of that investment, good for them.

Also, I think you mean GM, not GE

GM owners of the Bolt are reporting less than 5% total capacity losses over the past 3 years and GM just came out with a new Bolt. Tesla owners are reporting maintaining about 90% on their Model S since it came out. Personally, I'm ready to go electric, but a new car just isn't in the budget for a couple of years. The new Leaf and Bolt are both neat little hatchbacks-perfect daily runabouts and put the bike in the back!

[josephr]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

It's interesting that this seems to be the 'goal' but it never mentions if a charging station is available at the end of that trip...Sure, an EV could get me to my Rx at the USAF Academy but, what then...??? And that 'magic' number is when it's not too warm or cold, the conditions are perfect for the EV..kinda like 'mileage' posted on the cars 'sticker'...

300 miles is about the range of your regular gasoline car. My CX-5 calculates miles-til-empty and its about 330 miles per fill-up. But charging stations are wherever you can find an outlet...maybe not the superfast charging you read about, but for most homeowners, the superfast charging station thing is really not neccessary. As far as long-distance driving, it takes 30 minutes to charge up to 80% capacity...considering thats about 20 minutes longer than to put gas in a car, I think its just going to be a matter of time before Wendy's, Chipotle, McDonald's, etc, start putting up charging stations at their locations.

[Macadamia]

hehe I knew Hummer wasn't dead, let's get this thing out in time for the next recession!

[gemship]

Originally Posted by josephr

300 miles is about the range of your regular gasoline car. My CX-5 calculates miles-til-empty and its about 330 miles per fill-up. But charging stations are wherever you can find an outlet...maybe not the superfast charging you read about, but for most homeowners, the superfast charging station thing is really not neccessary. As far as long-distance driving, it takes 30 minutes to charge up to 80% capacity...considering thats about 20 minutes longer than to put gas in a car, I think its just going to be a matter of time before Wendy's, Chipotle, McDonald's, etc, start putting up charging stations at their locations.

And maybe when that day comes they will figure out a more green way to make all that electricity because the grid will need to grow for sure. Well it is a Humvee so maybe the auto designers can incorporate some solar panels and maybe a windmill on the roof

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by alancw3

Peter I think you are missing something here. first hydrogen is a zero emission fuel and what about the energy, fossil, coal or whatever that is needed to produce electricity for storage batteries?

I get that but asking about the energy required to make hydrogen vs using that energy(electricity) to power the vehicle. Kinda like eating the cow that ate the veggies or eat the veggies first..type thing.

BTW-Mark answered it really well, as I knew he would...

BTW-NOTHING is 'zero emission'..whether it be the energy to produce the wind turbine, the energy needed to make the solar panel, the car battery, the hydrogen or fuel cell...NOTHING. Laying in the sun to get warm is zero emission, not much else. I get a kick out of Leaf's, 'Zero Emissions' or subaru, 'PZEV' on their back lid..what a crock..

300 miles is about the range of your regular gasoline car. My CX-5 calculates miles-til-empty and its about 330 miles per fill-up. But charging stations are wherever you can find an outlet

My point, I guess..travel to the USAF Academy..NO charging stations but TONS of gas stations. My point is, what is going to be the impetus to swap from gas stations to charging stations? It won't be done if it doesn't make somebody $..I'm guessing some sort of calamity, because people are lemmimgs, they won't 'change' unless they are forced to, it's either a matter of convenience or $..but 'feel good' decisions about EVs are teeny, tiny, tiny, small....