Campagnolo Gotta Wake Up!

[shinomaster]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Oh geez, waiting for the 'but PowerTorque' thread...once upon a time, long ago in a galaxy far, far away...wait, wake up..you needed a crank puller to get a crank off. With PowerTorque you need a crank puller..I have 2, not expensive and easy to use..YO!!

Thanks for that, I have a crank puller for my square taper cranks but not the Power torque crank on my CX bike which is always loose. Either the shop here is completely incompetent (possibly), or it's a bum crank. All I know is that they told me it's a pain to remove and they gouged up the carbon arms when doing so. I like Ultra-torque better because you just need a big wrench. The fact that they did away with PT tells me something.

[Clancy]

Originally Posted by b33

This is actually a thing . . . in your world.

Beemer vs Bimmer, yes. At least since the mid-70’s when I started riding BMW motorcycles. I always thought it was silly, but there are a LOT of BMW fans around the world and amongst them, these terms are used commonly.

I just say BMW.....I mean after all it’s a BMW

And Holy Tread Drift Batman did this one ever go off topic

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by b33

You use analogy in place of math, Trucks do not equal brands - feel free to use BMW, Benz (or is it BENSSS for the motorcycles) or Caddy (is it Caddie) or whatever brand you want. Go for it - Honda and Toyota in the after market reign supreme.. You chose not to because you can't. You are the one who said they hold value over time. . . . don't tell me, show me. I showed you how Campy had little market share when new but massive market share AND price in after market. Should I bold to make my point?

Again, by your logic Shimano and SRAM sell way more in the after-market to Campy - regardless of price, please show me where, since a decade ago, they sell more than Campy.

The entire internet is yours. As Andrew Yang said, please use Math and not things like Huge, the best, the most, the bestests, huge margin . . . math. . . .again, we're talking aftermarket where quality and service counts.

In bold above, I said none of that.

The Toyota/BMW analogy was wrong on many fronts and way OT, having zero to do with the thread.. But I'm more than happy to leave you in your beliefs in it. You seem distraught by it and nobody wants that. Certainly not me.

Campy has it's place, it's just a fact that volume sales isn't it compared to the orher two.

That's not a dig at Campy either, they have carved out a nice slice of the pie. The fact that it is smaller slice doesn't mean it's a bad thing. It's just a fact of the market.

And I agree with others that it is wise for Campy to be more selective in offerings. And too it's been pointed out that you can do Campy and gravel. As others have put forth, it looks like it comes down to whether a clutch rear derailleur and maybe even 1X is important to people. Time will tell.

[Jef58]

Campagnolo is kind of in a sweet spot as a company. Without getting to big, they make very high performance components and wheels. They do have to be careful not to invest in products that fall out of their core beliefs as a company. As far as what they do good, my 9 speed shifters have been rebuilt twice and converted to 10 speed. They shift as well now as they did then. That appeals to me as a consumer knowing that I can keep this stuff as long as parts are available. I don't care about aesthetics as much as function and sustainability. Every Campagnolo item I have between wheels and components have been flawless. So whatever they are doing, keep it up.

[b33]

Originally Posted by Burnette

In bold above, I said none of that.

The Toyota/BMW analogy was wrong on many fronts and way OT, having zero to do with the thread.. But I'm more than happy to leave you in your beliefs in it. You seem distraught by it and nobody wants that. Certainly not me.

When I show Toyota / BMW after marketplace as an example. That is economics.

When you say "Shimano has way more massive volume . . . ." that is economics (which, I agree and which, by the way completely support the next point).

When I show you that Campy 10 speed has, factually, more volume in the used marketplace than 7800 . . . .that is economics.

When you say "it's OT" "Cars are my jam" "you seem distraught" you are pontificating.

Just because you have more post counts than me doesn't mean you carry more sway nor does it mean you are the owner of facts.

Unless you can explain, in simple econ, why 7800, which was sold in far more volume, now has significantly less after market volume then I will hold onto Occam's Razor and what I know to be true - it is because Campy 10 speed can be repaired for not much money while 7800 can not.

I feel like I'm talking to the leader of the free world about windmills. SMH.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by b33

So what you are saying is you are unable to supply math. Got it. My beliefs, something you brought up, are indeed very OT.

No, you went on a tangent about cars and that's OT and as far as the numbers go, as you say it's on the internet.

Again, it's not a knock that Campy sells less and it doesn't mean they are bad or low quality. They are not. It does show you the scale though that Shimano and SRAM sell in comparison. That shear size of scale effects new and used sales. That is all it is:

McMahon: What is SRAM's market share?

SRAM's Day: Shimano is about 2 billion in sales in the bike industry: we're about 700 million.

McMahon: is Campagnolo a competitive factor?

SRAM's Day: Not really a competitive factor. They are really a great brand, a classic brand. They're probably about 100 million in sales, with 60 million if that in wheels and 40 million in drivetrain.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.bus...terview-2018-3

The bicycle components market is a tough one to nail down, what with the complexity of users versus complete bike sales, and OEM versus aftermarket sales, but my analysis indicates that the total is roughly 4 billion annually, of which Shimano is half and SRAM is just shy if 20%.. Nobody else is anywhere close.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.for...ry-giants/amp/

And all of this jibes with Tater's assessment earlier in the thread. It doesn't mean Campy isn't a viable company, they indeed are. It doesn't mean they are bad or are of low quality. They certainly aren't. They go toe to toe with the giant that is Shimano and do well in the road arena. It's just the scales that they sell at are vastly different. And doing the math, the shear amount if Shimano and SRAM out there compared to Campy is indeed huge.

Again, as has already been expressed by others in the thread, and I agree with it, it was wise for Campy not to chase fast growing niches.

I'm convinced that for the terrain I ride, a clutch derailleur and 1X wouldn't be beneficial enough to spend money to try it. But I'm also aware that some people obviously do see the pluses and I think it's great that they have choices if that's what they want.

[Clancy]

An excellent and informative answer.

[oldpotatoe]

Again, as has already been expressed by others in the thread, and I agree with it, it was wise for Campy not to chase fast growing niches.

They tried that with MTB and almost went under because of it. Valentino sold everything "Campagnolo" except the bike stuff(like magnesium castings of aircraft landing gear, among others)...BUT, as I and others have mentioned. Campag DOES make 'GRoad' stuff..Chorus and some Potenza stuff, reallyn excellent disc brakes, mid compact cranks, medium cage rear ders..cogsets that go to 32......mix and match..

BTW-How many aluminum rim, disc brake wheelsets does zipp(sram) make?

How about shimano wheels? How many from a few years ago 'go to 11'?

When shimano finally goes all in on road and GRoad 12s..how many shimano 11s wheels will be able to be converted?

How many shimano wheels can be converted to a xd driver?

Gotta a frame with 2 inch tires on it?..can't use a front der? a niche, w/i a niche, w/i a niche, w/i a...you get the idea...Doubt Campag would make a dedicated 1by anything for that teeny, tiny, itsy bitsy, market.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by shinomaster

Thanks for that, I have a crank puller for my square taper cranks but not the Power torque crank on my CX bike which is always loose. Either the shop here is completely incompetent (possibly), or it's a bum crank. All I know is that they told me it's a pain to remove and they gouged up the carbon arms when doing so. I like Ultra-torque better because you just need a big wrench. The fact that they did away with PT tells me something.

I prefer UT as well..one wrench, of course BUT..sounds like your PT crank was installed 'poorly', then ridden and the spline part of the crank became wallowed some..like older ST used to..Call Campag and ask about warranty..number below or email Jerry..Original owner? Still have the wee tracking sticker on it. Bought NOT from 'some' online/MO place?

ott@campagnolona.com

Monday()

I think they went back to UT because it's cheaper to make...Easier to bond spindles to cranks with machined 'hirth' ends rather than trying to machine a splined crank insert.

[b33]

Originally Posted by Burnette

No, you went on a tangent about cars and that's OT and as far as the numbers go, as you say it's on the internet..

tangent - an abrupt change of course . . . . I supplied an example. That example notwithstanding you have still failed to explain the lack of after market 7800 when compared to the 4 times availability of record 10. The massive marketshare of 7800 NIB sales or OEM sales over Record 10 proves my point . . . Campy builds a superior product when service is taking into consideration and it is shown in the age, mileage, use and lively after marketplace of their components. . . much like Toyota over BMW or BMW over Austin Martin or Austin Martin over MG . . . . where did all those 7800 groupsets go, did they just disappear after their shelf date? No, they were thrown away because they aren't reparable.

I feel dumber for having read and participated in this thread,

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by b33

tangent - an abrupt change of course . . . . I supplied an example. That example notwithstanding you have still failed to explain the lack of after market 7800 when compared to the 4 times availability of record 10. The massive marketshare of 7800 NIB sales or OEM sales over Record 10 proves my point . . . Campy builds a superior product when service is taking into consideration and it is shown in the age, mileage, use and lively after marketplace of their components. . . much like Toyota over BMW or BMW over Austin Martin or Austin Martin over MG . . . . where did all those 7800 groupsets go, did they just disappear after their shelf date? No, they were thrown away because they aren't reparable.

I feel dumber for having read and participated in this thread,

You should have just said what you believed instead of all the analogies. Numbers were supplied, so let's move on.

The thread was whether Campy should spend the money in a fast growing niche.