8 and 9 speed freewheels

[NHAero]

The thread about Cino got me motivated to put a bunch of the Nuovo Record components back on my Bob Jackson. Current freewheel is a 7 speed Sachs 13-28. I'm seeing 8 and 9 speed freewheels are a item, and I'm also seeing discussion that using wider freewheels on a vintage hub can cause the axle to break.

The Jackson was re-spaced about 30 years ago by Sheldon and the Campy hub axle set-up was modified to 130mm (I am really hazy about the exact details of this whole process, but I think the wheel was re-dished too.) I ran the 7s freewheel set-up for close to 15 years with a 48-36-24 crank set-up and no broken axle, but I am 140 pounds.

I'm building the bike back up with the 48-42 Nuovo Record cranks and can live with 42-28 (I think!) here on Martha's Vineyard, but for something like Cino I'd like a 32 in back. So are these 8 and 9 speed freewheels a bad idea?

I plan to use some Dura Ace 9s barcons in friction mode, and keep the XTR rear derailleur because I'm skeptical of the Campy NR shifting the 28T cog. Plus, let's face it, this was never a fabulous shifting RD. I also have Campy barcons in the drawer, and they weren't great either. I'm not even sure how they ended up in my drawer with the other NR parts, since when I first built up the Jackson in 1972 I used Suntour barcons.

[Hindmost]

A Nuovo Record hub at 130 mm? I had trouble with 126 mm. 130 is the edge of failure, fortunately you are light.

That nine speed freewheel looks interesting. Like you I wonder what spacing it requires.

[cnighbor1]

May 27, 2023
"8 and 9 speed freewheels"
Was there ever a 9 speed freewheel?
Has the longer axles needed for 130mm rear spacing and with the use of a 8-speed freewheel failed, Wheels manufacturing has for sale an aircraft grade steel axle for this combination. which doesn't fail.
Charles Nighbor
PS: I have new 8 speed freewheels for sale if needed.

[rccardr]

I’ve done Cino with a Super Record 6X2 freewheel setup and a compact crank, so a 34-30 low gear and felt it was not enough for me to get up 9 mile hill. I’ve never been one to trust an 8 speed freewheel due to the lack of outboard bearing
support.

You don’t need MORE gears for Cino, you need the RIGHT gears. 7 speed is fine, especially combined with a triple or subcompact crank. I’ll likely ride my Raleigh Gran Tour (120 mm rear spacing) with a modified DA 7700 rear hub that takes 8 cogs using 9 speed spacers, so a low of 28/34. Friction shifted, of course.

On the other hand, I’m 72 and weigh 195, so YMMV.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by cnighbor1

May 27, 2023
"8 and 9 speed freewheels"
Was there ever a 9 speed freewheel?
Has the longer axles needed for 130mm rear spacing and with the use of a 8-speed freewheel failed, Wheels manufacturing has for sale an aircraft grade steel axle for this combination. which doesn't fail.
Charles Nighbor
PS: I have new 8 speed freewheels for sale if needed.

Thanks so much for this info!
I also see on eBay complete NOS Campy C-Record axles made for 130mm spacing (140mm axle length overall).
Did these break too, given that they were made for 130mm spacing?

I guess I need to disassemble my existing hub to see if I can determine what axle is in there now!

[NHAero]

So, assuming the axle problem can be solved...are there good 8 and 9 speed freewheels? And do they work on 130mm spacing hubs?
Do 8 and 9 speed freewheels use the same cog spacing as 8 and 9 speed cassettes? That would indicate that they could use indexed shifters.

[Mark McM]

Interestingly (or maybe not), a lot of e-bikes use freewheels and square taper cranks. Several companies make 8spd and 9spd freewheels for e-bikes. Sunrace makes some quite serviceable freewheels, which are apparently compatible with Shimano/SRAM indexing.

[NHAero]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Interestingly (or maybe not), a lot of e-bikes use freewheels and square taper cranks. Several companies make 8spd and 9spd freewheels for e-bikes. Sunrace makes some quite serviceable freewheels, which are apparently compatible with Shimano/SRAM indexing.

I'm wondering what the relative overall width of one of those is, compared to my existing Sachs 7s freewheel. Will I be able to just screw it on the Campy hub without messing with the wheel dish?

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by NHAero

I'm wondering what the relative overall width of one of those is, compared to my existing Sachs 7s freewheel. Will I be able to just screw it on the Campy hub without messing with the wheel dish?

I started cycling well into the free hub era so pardon the ignorant question: is campag threading the same as the Japanese component threading for freewheels?

[cnighbor1]

Originally Posted by NHAero

Thanks so much for this info!
I also see on eBay complete NOS Campy C-Record axles made for 130mm spacing (140mm axle length overall).
Did these break too, given that they were made for 130mm spacing?

I guess I need to disassemble my existing hub to see if I can determine what axle is in there now!

Yes those also failed.

[gbcoupe]

I ran an 8spd freewheel on mavic 531 (I think that was the model?) hubs for several years. I think that was in between the years I raced, but some hard miles non the less. No bends or breaks.

I don't remember how much wider the 8's were compared to the 7's

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

I started cycling well into the free hub era so pardon the ignorant question: is campag threading the same as the Japanese component threading for freewheels?

Almost. Campagnolo hubs of an earlier era used Italian freewheel threads, which were 35mm (1.378") x 24tpi, while Japanese components mostly used BSA threads, which were 1.370" x 24tpi, and later ISO threads, which are 1.375" x 24tpi. In practice, these generally interchangeable.

[El Chaba]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Almost. Campagnolo hubs of an earlier era used Italian freewheel threads, which were 35mm (1.378") x 24tpi, while Japanese components mostly used BSA threads, which were 1.370" x 24tpi, and later ISO threads, which are 1.375" x 24tpi. In practice, these generally interchangeable.

Campagnolo made freewheel compatible hubs with Italian, British ( marked “England”, and French threading. While the British and Italian-threaded hubs are more or less interchangeable, the informed consensus from that time period was that it was probably best not to go back and forth with different threaded freewheels repeatedly on the same hub. As you wrote, I never considered that there was any difference between Italian and British and never had a problem.

[dddd]

I've run a couple of bikes/wheelsets that had Shimano and Suntour freewheels fitted to French-threaded hubs and never had a problem with my local foothills steep climbs, but I am a lightweight. I would never change back to a French-threaded freewheel on these hubs since the threads were heavily re-formed.
Italian hub threads by comparison are hardly an issue at all.

I run a 7s freewheel on my mountain bike (below) that sees chunky terrain and endures the chain tension from a 22t chainring. I fitted a solid 10mm axle with matching cones and nuts, replacing the stock 3/8" solid axle (that was already bent from shipping). Securing the nuts after fixing a puncture can be done with a mere 4" adjustable wrench if the threads are kept oiled.

I bought a 10s Sunrace freewheel having an 11-34t range. I confirmed that the snout of the outer freewheel body can be shortened, removing the 11t cog and re-fitting the lockring (there is sufficient thread depth for this).
I returned the freewheel though, because of two issues; the cog spacing was defective i.e. one spacer was visibly too thin, and the seal at the hub mounting became compressed upon installation causing the freewheel to bind and drag the chain. Hello, Sunrace, the freewheel body should not tighten onto a plastic shield! These big freewheels were made for Ebikes and weigh about 700g. I was also disappointed that the largest cog was positioned much further from the driveside spoke flange than was necessary, which would have led me to lathe-modify the hubshell for this specific freewheel (could still use a spacer with a standard freewheel).

Whether or not an axle will bend or fatigue depends mainly on the intensity of the peak load upon hitting the biggest bump. Riding strategically, the axle might last a long time using an 8s freewheel if no granny-sized chainring is magnifying the chain tension and no big hits are encountered.

Lastly, bent axles and heavy cyclic loading (from rough roads and small chainrings) on an 8s freewheel hub can also lead to dropout failure, typically where the dropout joins the driveside chainstay.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by El Chaba

Campagnolo made freewheel compatible hubs with Italian, British ( marked “England”, and French threading. While the British and Italian-threaded hubs are more or less interchangeable, the informed consensus from that time period was that it was probably best not to go back and forth with different threaded freewheels repeatedly on the same hub. As you wrote, I never considered that there was any difference between Italian and British and never had a problem.

Another case is derailleur hanger threading. ISO is 10mm x 1mm, but Italian is 10mm x 26mm. Screwing one into the other will deform the threads a bit, but derailleur hangers are thin so there's only a few threads engaged, so the error stack-up is small, and you can get by screwing one into the other with little repercussion. But as you say, it's best not to go back and forth.