Why I'm going back to rim brakes for road.....

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by yinzerniner

Counterpoint - a ritchey outback would probably be the best bike for almost any rider. And it’s not stiff nor does it have traditional “road bike” design nor geo.

And it’s certainly not stiff. I think you’re confusing “stiffness” with “strength”. The ISO tests for mtb and off-road use only tests for strength and fatigue, not for stiffness.

See for yourself -
https://www.iso.org/obp/ui/#iso:std:...:-6:ed-2:v1:en

I think your statements are mostly valid except the focus of ire towards “gravel bikes” (or whatever you classify them as) is completely misguided, maybe due to personal biases based on unfavorable experiences with previous “gravel bike” frames. But either way any bike that gets people on the road/trail/path/building (if you’re Danny Macaskill) is a net positive.

You do not have a comprehensive understanding of what ISO (and equivalent) testing is and for what it tests.

To pass the ISO tests; forks are required to stay within a certain range for temporary and permanent deformation. In order for most production forks to pass, they required significantly more material - which means they are significantly stiffer. It's why most of the 1st/2nd generation gravel bikes had aluminum steerers - the layup technology (and cost) was not there to make a full carbon fork that would stay within the deformation limit during the tests. The same thing with steel - do you think designers just suddenly started specifying 1200 gram steel forks on bikes generally ridden with 40mm tires?

It's why even modern road rim forks are 30%+ heavier than they were in the 1990s.

Watch these tests and ask yourself - If I was making a fork that failed these tests, would it be possible to make the fork strong enough to pass the test without making it stiffer and heavier?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NYNiVcuFZdY
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/HgJ19d0h7nU
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbwMEWbDPsI

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by mhespenheide

Okay; now you have my attention. Which light and supple 650b bikes from the early 2000's up to 2015 should I be looking at? That's kind of exactly what I'm jonesing for in my next bike. Right now I'm looking at converting an old Trek frameset (Reynolds 531, dimple the chainstays, weld on new brake mounts, etc.)

I should have said "there were a lot of custom road bikes designed for 650bx42".

My point was that custom demi-balloon road bikes were the driving force behind part of the sentiment, but when the theme was translated into production models it feel apart. Because making those bikes for broad market required them to meet testing and safety requirements that most (all?) custom bikes did not.

Many of the bikes I was thinking of are specifically read about them in BQ or across the hall as VS.

[mhespenheide]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

I should have said "there were a lot of custom road bikes designed for 650bx42".

My point was that custom demi-balloon road bikes were the driving force behind part of the sentiment, but when the theme was translated into production models it feel apart. Because making those bikes for broad market required them to meet testing and safety requirements that most (all?) custom bikes did not.

Many of the bikes I was thinking of are specifically read about them in BQ or across the hall as VS.

Ah, got it. Yes. I'm essentially going to try to take this approach, directly inspired by the BQ "Frek": https://www.renehersecycles.com/what...3-steves-frek/.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

"The consumer decides" is so unbelievably out of touch it's hilarious. It's not the 1980s anymore and generalizing outcomes for limited broad-scale events is pointless ...

Without the awful gravel trend there wouldn't have been enough new customers to widely adopt new standards and the market would be much more split rim/disc. We may have seen road disc die out or grow very slowly. Instead road died, gravel boomed, discs and all their assorted faults are here forever.

I think you're the one that's out of touch. Everyone in the industry tells the same story -- when both rim and disc brake road bikes were offered, consumers chose disc brake 90% of the time. That was what drove manufacturers to cut way back on rim brake offerings.

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

I think you're the one that's out of touch. Everyone in the industry tells the same story -- when both rim and disc brake road bikes were offered, consumers chose disc brake 90% of the time. That was what drove manufacturers to cut way back on rim brake offerings.

We all know the most honest person is the person selling you something.

Otherwise, what you said doesn't refute what I said. Without the massive influx of new customers due to gravel trend uplifting cycling in general - there aren't enough consumers to chose disc xx% of the time.

Bicycle product lifecycle is such that many consumers didn't get to chose because by the time they needed a new bike, discs were the only option. Go to sleep in 2016 with the rim bikes you love, wake up in 2019 and see how many are left.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

We all know the most honest person is the person selling you something.

The beauty of conspiracy theories is that any evidence to the contrary is simply dismissed as part of the conspiracy. Clearly, people in the industry all got together and agreed that that would pitch this same story as justification for forcing disc brakes on the consumer.

Otherwise, what you said doesn't refute what I said. Without the massive influx of new customers due to gravel trend uplifting cycling in general - there aren't enough consumers to chose disc xx% of the time.

Road bikes still outsell gravel bikes. If everyone buying a road bike wanted rim brakes, the manufacturers would still be offering them in large numbers.

Bicycle product lifecycle is such that many consumers didn't get to chose because by the time they needed a new bike, discs were the only option. Go to sleep in 2016 with the rim bikes you love, wake up in 2019 and see how many are left.

What about people who last bought a bike in 2010? or 2000? Do you expect the cycling industry to wait 10 or 20 years before they respond to trends?

[Kirk007]

If you are new to cycling and are told disc brakes are better and safer than the old fashioned brakes used on your grandparents bike, why wouldn’t you pick the new new?

Safety sells whether it’s sanitizing your hands every 5 minutes to protect from germs or driving cars with automated semi self driving features And the size and weight of an armored car we seem to live in a world driven as much by fear as anything else.

And sometimes with good reason. It’s not hard to understand why many cyclists, and not just new ones, are looking for places that are safer to ride than alongside cars on paved roads.

Big bike companies are in the business of selling new bikes; if you were in the marketing department for a big brand, what story are you going to tell to maximize your sales numbers? Certainly not “be like Froome - real riders don’t need discs.”

Consumers are choosing disc brakes not necessarily because of an inherent superiority across the spectrum but rather because that’s what they’re being told to ride.

We (Paceline) are a small percentage of folks who ride bikes and have the luxury to base our decisions on actual experiences and to decide what we like best. I think that’s why this place is not old people shouting at the rain but rather informed, experienced consumers comfortable in their ability to decide for themselves what they want and like. But it may well be we are slightly past the pinnacle of availability of cutting edge technology in rim brake components. I’m old enough to be able to afford custom frames and not to worry about running our or parts and wheels for rim brake bikes- I consider that a luxury.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

The beauty of conspiracy theories is that any evidence to the contrary is simply dismissed as part of the conspiracy. Clearly, people in the industry all got together and agreed that that would pitch this same story as justification for forcing disc brakes on the consumer.


Road bikes still outsell gravel bikes. If everyone buying a road bike wanted rim brakes, the manufacturers would still be offering them in large numbers.


What about people who last bought a bike in 2010? or 2000? Do you expect the cycling industry to wait 10 or 20 years before they respond to trends?

Or everything is a coincidence and we can invoke the fairy tale called "market forces" - given the OEM market is essentially a monopoly - whatever Shimano wants, Shimano gets.

This is what I'm saying. Gravel brought a huge influx of new customers that put the nail in rim brake models. These new customers shortened the lifecycle for bike sales such that rim brakes were killed off quicker than they normally would have been. Without gravel there are less new customers, over a longer period of time = slower changeover from rim to disc. Or even balanced product lines similar to how 8-12/13 speeds are maintained at different price points.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

Or everything is a coincidence and we can invoke the fairy tale called "market forces" - given the OEM market is essentially a monopoly - whatever Shimano wants, Shimano gets.

That's just more nonsense. If consumers overwhelmingly wanted rim brakes, but Shimano refused to go along with it, SRAM would jump in and eat Shimano's lunch.

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

That's just more nonsense. If consumers overwhelmingly wanted rim brakes, but Shimano refused to go along with it, SRAM would jump in and eat Shimano's lunch.

I'm not arguing this. We're just talking past each other now.

[Ozz]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

That's just more nonsense. If consumers overwhelmingly wanted rim brakes, but Shimano refused to go along with it, SRAM would jump in and eat Shimano's lunch.

****NEWS FLASH****
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This just in: Not all cyclists are participants in "The Paceline" nor do they have the depth, breadth of cycling knowledge of said participants

Now returning to your regular programming.......
************************************************** **

I think most cycling buyers believe what the guy at the bike shop says....if Shimano says "sell bikes with disc brakes", the guy at the shop says to the consumer:

"Disc brakes stop better, work when wet, can accommodate larger tires, the pros use them, etc, etc, etc"

They buyer thinks: "My kids will be safer, my wife won't die, and the pros are using them as per the sales guy"

You other points about influx of riders due to gravel sound pretty spot on to me.

Of course, I could be completely wrong......

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

I'm not arguing this. We're just talking past each other now.

No, you seem to be arguing both sides. First you claim market forces don't work:

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

"The consumer decides" is so unbelievably out of touch it's hilarious.

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

Or everything is a coincidence and we can invoke the fairy tale called "market forces" - given the OEM market is essentially a monopoly - whatever Shimano wants, Shimano gets.

Then you claim they do work:

... customers that put the nail in rim brake models. These new customers shortened the lifecycle for bike sales such that rim brakes were killed off quicker than they normally would have been.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by Ozz

I think most cycling buyers believe what the guy at the bike shop says....if Shimano says "sell bikes with disc brakes", the guy at the shop says to the consumer:

"Disc brakes stop better, work when wet, can accommodate larger tires, the pros use them, etc, etc, etc"

They buyer thinks: "My kids will be safer, my wife won't die, and the pros are using them as per the sales guy"

That's probably all true. But, the decision to buy disc instead of rim was ultimately made by the consumer. And those decisions are what led manufacturers to cut way back on rim brake offerings. If consumers had rejected the sales pitch and predominantly purchased rim brakes, the pendulum might have swung the other way, and we'd likely see more rim brake offerings now.

[spoonrobot]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

No, you seem to be arguing both sides. First you claim market forces don't work:

Then you claim they do work:

Market forces exist but they are not a monolith to be invoked anytime something happens that one likes or dislikes. They provide a framework to think about and investigate outcomes.

This is my original post and point, nothing I've seen refutes what I said.

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

"The consumer decides" is so unbelievably out of touch it's hilarious. It's not the 1980s anymore and generalizing outcomes for limited broad-scale events is pointless.

Sure the consumer decides they don't want an air-driven shifting system sold on 1 or 2 bikes as OEM. Or single-line non-series hydraulic braking levers that requiring pairing to MTB calipers sold on mid-range bikes. Or electroshifting that doesn't work. 20 different bottom bracket standards. Etc. etc. etc.

The consumer isn't deciding anything when the industry decides to exclusively release 90% of new bikes with specific standards, while ceasing production of alternatives.

Consumer spending as a cudgel is limited and fleeting. It works when the market is static and the inflow/outflow of the customer pool is limited and balanced. It does not work when the market is dynamic with high inflow/outflow of customers. New customers give OEM the power to sway the technical direction of their products.

Without the awful gravel trend there wouldn't have been enough new customers to widely adopt new standards and the market would be much more split rim/disc. We may have seen road disc die out or grow very slowly. Instead road died, gravel boomed, discs and all their assorted faults are here forever.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by spoonrobot

Market forces exist but they are not a monolith to be invoked anytime something happens that one likes or dislikes. They provide a framework to think about and investigate outcomes.

This is my original post and point, nothing I've seen refutes what I said.

I suspect you will never "see" anything that refutes what you stated. But, again, look at just one of your statements:

Originally Posted by spoon robot

The consumer isn't deciding anything when the industry decides to exclusively release 90% of new bikes with specific standards, while ceasing production of alternatives.

You've flipped history on its head. It was because consumers overwhelmingly chose disc brakes that manufacturers reduced the number of rim brake offerings, not the other way around. Many, many people in the industry have stated this in interviews. You simply refuse too accept it.