Framebuilding Class experience

[coreyaugustus]

I appreciate the replies. I'm waiting on the cable stop screws to arrive Monday, so completed build pics and ride review will come soon.

Originally Posted by cinema

i don't know jack about framebuilding but i have oxy cut and welded before; are you torching w/oxy without shades?

I'm sure there's an element of potential retina damage, but I wasn't blowing tons of heat like in a cutting application and the light intensity isn't as extreme as with TIG. Also, the flame isn't your focal point; you're looking at the tubing for very slight changes in color to know when the heat is right. That's how it was explained to me. YMMV.

Originally Posted by Zoomie80

I’ve always wanted to build my own frame...did not know I could do it just down the road in Richmond (I’m in Fairfax Station)!

Well, mine was the last project done in his Richmond shop. He was in the process of moving out of Richmond and into a new house near Kilmarnock, VA while I was taking the class. Not sure when his new shop will be up and running, but he's not quitting the business. There are a couple active builders in Richmond, I learned, but I don't know if they also offer classes.

Originally Posted by schwa86

I am curious whether you think this was a “one off” or you think you learned enough that you will continue to build frames (either as hobby or otherwise?)

Interesting question. I've got a long-ish answer, but I'll try to keep it brief. Yes, I learned enough to try it again on my own. But--and it's a big but--space is very expensive where I live and I don't have access to controlled and dedicated shop space where I can keep tools and materials. It will be some time before I do it again, time in which much of what I recently learned will evaporate. I have no intent of turning this skill into anything but a hobby. I may make a frame for myself or friends, but won't try to turn it into a business. If that were my intent, I'd do the UBI courses and probably a course or two elsewhere, like Doug's or Aaron's (AR Cycles) just to see how others like to work.

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

It is one thing to have just seen and heard instructions and repeat it and quite another to remember it all to do later. [... ] Writing everything down was the beginning of my manual.

This is why I like to have 2 students in a class if possible. It is easier for them to see and understand beginner mistakes and not feel bad if they can’t catch on right away.

To more directly answer Schwa86’s question, when I do one week classes it is necessary for me to do more of the work so a student can end up with a decent frame.

Doug, you hit on some solid points that were true of my experience:
- Sure, I could do another one soon and get the job done on my own. However, in 5 yrs and I haven't been torching, a refresher would be good.
- I took a journal with me to take notes on the overall process as well as record mistakes and how I corrected them, a lessons learned notebook. I'll add to it with future builds.
- The course was one-on-one instruction, very hands on. Rob would either explain the next step in detail or demonstrate, depending on how confident I was based on the explanation. I did most all the work myself. However, because I messed up the fork blade length (twice), Rob finished up the fork while I finished the brazing on the frame. For what it's worth, I did weld the fork twice and my silver penetration was killer.

As for the torching skill, I was surprised how easily that came to me. We all struggle with different skills, but keeping the flame in motion, applying heat evenly, playing pied piper with silver, and so forth all just sort of clicked after a few tries. I did have some messy shorelines and there were some air bubbles in my rear dropouts that I had to clean up a couple times, but I was pretty clean with most of it. No stalactites of silver or waste on the shop floor.
I found the measuring, remeasuring, and cutting to be the most difficult part. I didn't have spares for the main tubes, so I was nervous about making cuts and being sure they were done right, especially since I was using a handheld Dremel to do it. I'd make a cut that left some extra, then use a grinding bit to get the joint to meet just right. If I were to do this again, I'd spend more time laying out the drawing, measuring twice and drawing everything as close to perfect as I can manage. (Probably just use BikeCad or similar.) And when I do get some space, I'll spend the money and get the most precise tools I can for this application.

[coreyaugustus]

Originally Posted by old_fat_and_slow

BTW, what lugs did you use?

Long Shen made the lugs. Materials all came from Framebuilder Supply.

Originally Posted by zzy

I'm interested to read that the teacher let you choose your own tubing. I have read that some make everyone use the same tubeset, presumably for ease of tooling/mitering and heat application.

That was definitely a plus to this course. I didn't want anything heavy or "un-special" to me. That being said, there are some materials that are probably not ideal for just starting out, and everyone brings different skills or competencies to a class. It may be easier for some teachers to use a standard format than a personalized curriculum. You may not feel as precious toward the outcome if you don't get to have your fingerprints on all aspects of the class, but the skills you learn should be the same.
Also, I specified that I wanted to learn about the planning phase just as much as the build phase, so choosing tubes, lugs, etc. was part of that. I had a pretty good idea of what I wanted to build in the first place, but I did make some informed changes to the initial idea having had to do this research.

[Doug Fattic]

Originally Posted by zzy

I'm interested to read that the teacher let you choose your own tubing. I have read that some make everyone use the same tubeset, presumably for ease of tooling/mitering and heat application. I want to take a build a frame, but also want to use a very oversized steel. I was long considering the Yamaguchi class, but don't want a 64cm frame with standard cromo steel tubing.

I can't speak for other teachers but doing ultralight (.7/.4/.7) heat treated tubing or stainless lugs are not sensible choices for someone just learning how to braze. The chances that they make an unrepairable mistake is high and would destroy not only their frame but their learning experience. Sometimes a student just wants to be involved with making their own dream bike so I will do the brazing on heat treated or stainless materials. Another problem can be choosing lugs that have angles that don't match the design. This makes building the bike more difficult and ups their potential frustration several levels. That upsets their learning experience. Otherwise they can choose whatever they want. It is just sensible to choose materials that match the abilities of the student.

[Doug Fattic]

Originally Posted by bigbill

When I retire from engineering in two years, I'll still have two years of GI Bill remaining. I was considering attending the classes at UBI. Another semi-local option is David Bohm (Bohemian) down in Tucson. He offers everything including carbon. Garro is two hours away, maybe I could sweep up his shop for a few weeks....

You might be interested to know that the biggest group of people that take my class are engineers (w/lots of retired ones). The next largest are the creative arts types. Designing and carving a set of blank lugs can be appealing to them. I get very few that have a background in marketing or business.

If there are GI Bill requirements that a school be acknowledged by a state in order to get tuition reimbursed than UBI might be your only option because they are a registered school in Oregon. Otherwise I would suggest taking Dave's class.

I get lots of students that have already taken another 2 week frame building class somewhere else before they take my class if they plan on making more in the future. This illustrates that students recognize how challenging it can be to learn enough to continue.

[coreyaugustus]

Here are the pics of the frame all built up. It doesn't look too bad from a distance. Minimal logos for that, "if you know, you know" look.
Gonna give it a shakedown ride tomorrow if it doesn't rain.

As for the build, I'm going to try a 1x setup and see how I like it.
The components so far:
- Group: 11 speed Campagnolo Chorus, refinished by Cyclocarbon. 46T narrow-wide chainring and 12-27T cassette. KMC X11SL chain. Polished skeleton brakes.
- Wheels: Velocity Quill rims on Bitex hubs (built by oldpotatoe) with Challenge Strada Bianca 30mm tires.
- Cockpit: Ritchey stem, 3T Ergonova LTD carbon bars with the logos sanded off, wrapped in Fizik bondcush. Cane Creek 110 headset. Selle Anatomica X2 saddle atop a Thomson Masterpiece post.
- Platform pedals and bottle cages from my parts bin.
8.77kg

[skitlets]

Looks great! With Crust now in Richmond too, there will be many bike reasons to visit.

[Spaghetti Legs]

Very slick - I like it. With that gray, I would be tempted to put something akin to a hull number logo like on a US Navy ship.

[BRad704]

Looks great! And this whole thread is very motivational.

I did loads of research last year and tried to figure out brazing on my own (unsuccessfully). But I have a local builder I've talked to before during a ride. Maybe I should reach out and see if he does any classes like this.


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[coreyaugustus]

Originally Posted by Spaghetti Legs

Very slick - I like it. With that gray, I would be tempted to put something akin to a hull number logo like on a US Navy ship.

A cool idea for someone who'd served on a boat. I would feel inauthentic about it. Not as offensive perhaps as wearing a uniform I haven't earned, but similar. Just my gut feeling about it, ymmv.

That being said, if I had some carbon or aluminum race bike with large, shaped tubes, then I would be super tempted to paint it with dazzle camo.

[Zoomie80]

That’s a great looking bike, bet it rides just as nice!

[AngryScientist]

This is an awesome thread.

Great work on the bike and sounds like you had an enjoyable week and came out with a solid product.

Thanks for sharing your experience, and special thanks to Doug F for chiming in here too with inside details.

cool stuff, and good to see a positive thread these days. thumbs up!

[coreyaugustus]

Originally Posted by AngryScientist

This is an awesome thread.

cool stuff, and good to see a positive thread these days. thumbs up!

Glad you enjoyed reading it. I certainly enjoyed the experience and was happy to share it with this group.

[coreyaugustus]

Originally Posted by BRad704

I did loads of research last year and tried to figure out brazing on my own (unsuccessfully). But I have a local builder I've talked to before during a ride. Maybe I should reach out and see if he does any classes like this.

I spent a lot of time sifting through threads on Velocipede for inspiration. There's no replacement for some hands-on training, but good on ya for trying to figure it out on your own.

Who is building in your area?

[Doug Fattic]

Originally Posted by coreyaugustus

As for the torching skill, I was surprised how easily that came to me. We all struggle with different skills, but keeping the flame in motion, applying heat evenly, playing pied piper with silver, and so forth all just sort of clicked after a few tries. I did have some messy shorelines and there were some air bubbles in my rear dropouts that I had to clean up a couple times, but I was pretty clean with most of it. No stalactites of silver or waste on the shop floor.

Unlike you most students struggle to learn brazing. You must be in the above 95% skill level. Our natural talents vary and not everybody has great musical or sports abilities or can handle a torch well like you did. I mention this in case others might think they will learn easily too. The most common problem in learning to braze is doing something different with each hand at the same time (like pat your head and make circles on your tummy). For example when the student gets a joint up to temperature with a certain flame pattern and then starts to add silver or brass, it is typical that his torch hand freezes as he moves the rod with his other hand to keep it in contact with the metal as it melts. Of course a not moving flame can do real damage real quick.

Rookies all tend to make the same mistakes (for example not holding the brazing rod at the best angle). By showing them what they are and how to avoid them can really shorten their learning curve (and decrease their frustration). And that is just for starters. On each joint they have to do a pattern that flows the brazing material completely through the joint covering every inside mm and not have any peeking about beyond the shorelines. Furthermore the heat has to applied evenly so it doesn’t pull a tube out of alignment. This complexity is why I have always been thankful a master showed me and why others would find the same benefit too.

[BRad704]

Originally Posted by coreyaugustus

Who is building in your area?

Earl Glazer
Memphis TN



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