Mountain Bikers and Grizzly Bears

[benb]

Originally Posted by rigged

Sorry, did we read the same article? I understand that there people have ulterior motives, but how you got from that article to your conclusions includes a whole bunch of unsubstantiated assumptions.

Did you read the report?

The article starts out with a heart-pulling story about a guy supposedly hitting a bear and then the bear swats him and kills him and uses that to launch into a thesis about how mountain bikes don't belong in these areas.

Read the report. Google the author of the report and see the trail of anti-MTB articles he's quoted in.

No one saw him hit the bear. There's no GPS track or Strava file or anything showing he was actually traveling at an excessive speed.

The report has pictures of the trail, it's flat trail, it looks nice and smooth but it's flat, not downhill. There are pictures of the bike, it looks like an older low-end bike. Tektro rim brake levers & Deore shifters visible.

He was riding with a new inexperienced mountain biker according to the report. He was supposedly travelling 20-25mph on flat singletrack around a blind corner.. but his friend who was a newbie was somehow keeping up with him. Not many people actually travel in that speed range in the woods on flat singletrack for long, and they don't have their newbie friends keep up with them if they do. It does say he was very familiar with the trail. The newbie friend couldn't see him but knew he was travelling 20-25mph. He didn't witness the collision but heard the bear roar.

There was never another sighting of the bear.

The whole thing just sounds weirder and weirder the more you read it.

I read things into it cause I've read this article over and over for 20 years. Same pattern, fill in the blanks slightly differently.

The gist of the scientific reasoning behind MTBs being bad and horses/hiking being OK is that mountain bikers go too fast and make too little noise. So we're going to hit/conflict with the bears. I assume they are meaning the bears will kill/injure the mountain bikers and then the authorities will go in and kill the bears? It sure doesn't sound like there is any scientific studies showing MTBs are super fast and make no noise and that's causing lots of collisions/impacts/conflicts with predators. The guy who wrote the report has been using this case of this one guy who was killed by a bear as proof in every article he's quoted in for the past 2 years. It just took 2 years to make it to the New York Times.

[redir]

Originally Posted by benb

This is actually really interesting if it's actually true... we don't have Elk here.

I can't even count the # of times I've come across White Tailed Deer riding mountain bikes. They generally don't react at all as long as you are on the bike... they're completely unfazed unless you're about to smack into them.

If you stop and put a foot down they bolt immediately. They're way more scared of you on foot.

I have on numerous occasions ended up WAY closer than I'd prefer to be to deer when on a bike. Like 10x closer at least than on foot.

So it'd be really interesting if Elk and Deer were different in this behavior.

Apparently they are making a comeback here in Virginia. Elk used to be all over Kentucky and Virginia maybe even as far up north as you are I don't know. And of course that was a very long time ago.

[benb]

The Trick with the deer would be figuring out how to get a picture without putting a foot down. I could never figure that out. Put a foot down and pull the camera out of your jersey pocket.. the deer disappear in a flash.

[merlinmurph]

Originally Posted by Dino Suegiù

Do not recreate in the woods where bears defecate.

In other words, don't go in the woods - period.
Seriously?

[Dino Suegiù]

Originally Posted by merlinmurph

In other words, don't go in the woods - period.
Seriously?

I think your humor/irony meter might need a little re-calibrating I think.

But yes, in my opinion it is just fine to not go mtbing/etc in a known and active grizzly bear habitat. As in, one might also decide that one does not have to go "convert" some isolated islanders off of Japan. Etc. Etc. There are plenty of other destinations to get one's rocks off, in both/all cases. Ymmv.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F9M2rXKC5jY

[rigged]

Originally Posted by benb

Did you read the report?

The article starts out with a heart-pulling story about a guy supposedly hitting a bear and then the bear swats him and kills him and uses that to launch into a thesis about how mountain bikes don't belong in these areas.

Read the report. Google the author of the report and see the trail of anti-MTB articles he's quoted in.

No one saw him hit the bear. There's no GPS track or Strava file or anything showing he was actually traveling at an excessive speed.

The report has pictures of the trail, it's flat trail, it looks nice and smooth but it's flat, not downhill. There are pictures of the bike, it looks like an older low-end bike. Tektro rim brake levers & Deore shifters visible.

He was riding with a new inexperienced mountain biker according to the report. He was supposedly travelling 20-25mph on flat singletrack around a blind corner.. but his friend who was a newbie was somehow keeping up with him. Not many people actually travel in that speed range in the woods on flat singletrack for long, and they don't have their newbie friends keep up with them if they do. It does say he was very familiar with the trail. The newbie friend couldn't see him but knew he was travelling 20-25mph. He didn't witness the collision but heard the bear roar.

There was never another sighting of the bear.

The whole thing just sounds weirder and weirder the more you read it.

I read things into it cause I've read this article over and over for 20 years. Same pattern, fill in the blanks slightly differently.

The gist of the scientific reasoning behind MTBs being bad and horses/hiking being OK is that mountain bikers go too fast and make too little noise. So we're going to hit/conflict with the bears. I assume they are meaning the bears will kill/injure the mountain bikers and then the authorities will go in and kill the bears? It sure doesn't sound like there is any scientific studies showing MTBs are super fast and make no noise and that's causing lots of collisions/impacts/conflicts with predators. The guy who wrote the report has been using this case of this one guy who was killed by a bear as proof in every article he's quoted in for the past 2 years. It just took 2 years to make it to the New York Times.

benb I agree that the lead in of the story doesn't really connect to the main point of the article about human impact on wildlife in their habitat, and no I did not read the report-- though it does smell a bit fishy based on your read. And I don't ride on trails where our (MTB) impact on wildlife is being called into question, though I have seen coyote, deer and foxes in the Don trail system in Toronto. So I don't share your sense of being threatened by other interests, but I can understand where you are coming from if you do. Still, the point about our impact on wildlife is worth considering, no matter how we use the trails.

[Kirk007]

Originally Posted by redir

Apparently they are making a comeback here in Virginia. Elk used to be all over Kentucky and Virginia maybe even as far up north as you are I don't know. And of course that was a very long time ago.

Elk are rapidly reestablishing, starting in Kentucky and now spreading to Tennessee, North Carolina, Virginia .... There are no natural barriers to their continued expansion. Elk are primarily grazers whereas deer are primarily browsers. In the absence of cougars and wolves, that leaves only black bear (fawns) and humans (where hunting is reestablished) as predators. They have become a major traffic hazard in Pigeon Creek Gorge on I-40 just north of Great Smoky NP. We are engaged in a radio collaring study to determine the appropriate place for constructing some wildlife crossings (also for black bear). No one wants to run into an elk or a bear (or bike or in a car).

[jamesdak]

Originally Posted by redir

Apparently they are making a comeback here in Virginia. Elk used to be all over Kentucky and Virginia maybe even as far up north as you are I don't know. And of course that was a very long time ago.

What??!!! My family comes from Elkton, you mean the town may once again have real elk around it? That would be awesome!

[redir]

Originally Posted by Kirk007

Elk are rapidly reestablishing, starting in Kentucky and now spreading to Tennessee, North Carolina, Virginia .... There are no natural barriers to their continued expansion. Elk are primarily grazers whereas deer are primarily browsers. In the absence of cougars and wolves, that leaves only black bear (fawns) and humans (where hunting is reestablished) as predators. They have become a major traffic hazard in Pigeon Creek Gorge on I-40 just north of Great Smoky NP. We are engaged in a radio collaring study to determine the appropriate place for constructing some wildlife crossings (also for black bear). No one wants to run into an elk or a bear (or bike or in a car).

We need more hunters for sure. Right after my ride tonight as we were all hanging out I commented on a bunch of deer just walking nonchalant through a neighborhood.. Then towards a busy road. Yikes!

What is a browser? I had not heard that before. What I have heard is that deer like 'the edge.' That's why no one can have any roses around here.

Since I have lived in the Mountains of Virginia going on 25 years now I have gone from, "Man I'd love to see a bear", to " Holy crap another bear!"

Don't get me wrong I love it, I love to coexist with our natural habitat. And for the most part they are not a problem. Last MTB race I did there were several reports of black bear on the course, I saw them.

Originally Posted by jamesdak

What??!!! My family comes from Elkton, you mean the town may once again have real elk around it? That would be awesome!

Yes! KY was covered in Elk at one point in time. I worked for an energy company in KY in the 90's, mostly in the eastern part of the state and there were towns and roads that all had "elk" this or that in the name because that's what was once there. There was an initiative to bring them back at that time and from what I understand was very successful. Probably why they have moved into VA. I have yet to see any here though.

[nighthawk]

Originally Posted by redir

What is a browser? I had not heard that before. What I have heard is that deer like 'the edge.' That's why no one can have any roses around here.

Browsing is a feeding behavior, exploiting leaves and twigs from low tree branches and shrubs. Grazing is munching more on the grasses and forbs.
In areas densely (over) populated with deer, you can often see a browse line at the forest edge. A pretty distinct line where vegetation has been stripped, basically as high as the deer can reach.

Depends on location, but what I’ve seen is more a seasonality in feeding behavior, for example ungulates primarily grazing in spring and summer when new grass and forbs are abundant, then moving to browse in the fall and winter.

In urban and suburban areas, especially with dense deer populations, those ornamental shrubs, like roses, are a high quality/low energetic cost food source. Especially in winter months when food is scarce and travel requires trudging through snow.

[gasman]

I never heard of the word forb until now. Had to Wiki it. Learn something every day.
I do know we have to dang many deer and turkeys in our end of town.

[redir]

Ah yes ok I have definitely seen that browse line that you are talking about. The deer population in Virginia has gone crazy in the last ten years.

[GregL]

In upstate NY, it's said that there are two categories of drivers: those that have hit a deer, and those that will hit a deer. I've hit two, spun into a ditch avoiding one, and been a passenger in a vehicle that hit one. I also know several pilots who have hit deer on runways. One of the aircraft-deer collisions cost upwards of $300K in engine/airframe damage!

Back to bike content, I've had way too many close encounters with deer and fear that a collision is inevitable. I once panic-stopped so close to a doe that I could feel her snot hitting my forearm as she snorted at me. There are several locations on my regular road riding routes where I slow to a near-walking pace due to the likelihood of deer encounters. They're beautiful, but not too compatible with wheeled transportation devices!

Greg

[Dekonick]

Right now I am listening to coyotes howling... I wonder how a pack of coyotes would react to a mountain bike...

Seriously, in Baltimore I worry far more about the squeegee kids than the bears in the state parks... or coyotes (unless you own a cat).

Much more likely to die from a car jacking than a bear jacking.

[Kirk007]

Originally Posted by Dekonick

Right now I am listening to coyotes howling... I wonder how a pack of coyotes would react to a mountain bike...

Seriously, in Baltimore I worry far more about the squeegee kids than the bears in the state parks... or coyotes (unless you own a cat).

Much more likely to die from a car jacking than a bear jacking.

coyotes will run in small family groups but are more likely to be solitary when encountered in the wild. In any event, I encounter coyotes, usually singles, quite regularly on my bike. They stop and stare or they run. You're right, much more danger posed by two legged carnivores.