Is there any good reason why a Lynskey costs 3K and a Moots costs 13K?

[merlinmurph]

Originally Posted by bigbill

Like mentioned before, back when the Lynskeys were Litespeed, the main competition was Merlin and, to a smaller extent, Serotta. Merlins were cool, they had a butted and straight gage but otherwise basic bikes. For considerably less than a Merlin, you could get one of several different Litespeed models including polished versions. I had a polished Classic that looked like a bumper on a Buick. Side by side, the welds were better on the Merlins; Merlins were more likely to build up easier with better threads in the bottom brackets and dead-on alignment. But a Litespeed was a thousand dollars less than a Merlin, and we were buying bikes to race.

Being from Boston, I'm a big Merlin fan, but I have to admit that Litespeed ate Merlin's lunch and was a big part of their downfall.

Merlin claimed they couldn't thread BBs - yet, Litespeed pulled it off. Soon, Merlin had threaded BBs.

I remember you could buy a built-up Litespeed for the price of a Merlin frameset. That really made people think.

To compete with Litespeed, Merlin came out with a budget mtb (Echo??) and the price still wasn't competitive with Merlin.


As for the Moots vs. Lynskey debate, Clean39T said it better than I ever could

Originally Posted by Clean39T

Materials, craftsmanship, investments, rider support, events, history, customer service, consistency, innovation.. and on.. and on.

I can. I don't know anyone who would look at the two company's offerings side by side and think there is even a question that there are differences.

Are those differences worth the premium? That's up to the buyer to decide - and no judgement to those who decide a Lynskey is the right nexus of value and quality for them. But a Moots isn't a Lynskey with a different name slapped on the downtube.

[charliedid]

I like Gary Helfrich's comment from back in the 90's as I recall it. "Sometimes it's a matter of who you want to give your money to"

[biker72]

I've personally owned Serotta, Seven, and now 2 Lynskey TI bikes. I did do a test ride of a Moots.

I'm not really comparing apples to apples because the Lynskey's are newer and can accommodate wider tires. The Serotta just didn't fit.

I do like the ride of the Lynskey's better.

[fourflys]

interesting discussion for sure..

I would love to have a Moots because it's a Moots.. just a beautiful bike with a cool story for sure.. but do I think I would feel the difference between a Moots and Lynskey if I was riding then with no brand ID? Probably not.. others might, but probably not me.. Now, would I buy a Motobecane Ti bike based on my comments above? Not a chance, because I am a bit vain like that.. (hey, I know myself!)

So, I think in most cases, it comes down a lot of how certain brands market themselves and how they tell their story..

Now the real question from the comments above is what kind of car does OldPotatoe drive? Inquiring minds need to know! I'm guessing Alfa Romeo.. probably newer, but I could see Peter cruising around in an older Spider..

[Likes2ridefar]

Originally Posted by fourflys

interesting discussion for sure..

I would love to have a Moots because it's a Moots.. just a beautiful bike with a cool story for sure.. but do I think I would feel the difference between a Moots and Lynskey if I was riding then with no brand ID? Probably not.. others might, but probably not me.. Now, would I buy a Motorbecane Ti bike based on my comments above? Not a chance, because I am a bit vain like that.. (hey, I know myself!)
.

If the bike fits and is doing what I need it to do, Imo the materials don’t matter. Adjust PSI as needed

[mcteague]

With regards to the alignment comments; I heard a podcast with Carl Strong where he was shocked at how many bikes he saw at the shows were not properly aligned. He says that is super important to him, and his bikes. Often its the little things like this that can make a frame cost more than one that seems the same for less money.

Tim

[paredown]

Originally Posted by mcteague

With regards to the alignment comments; I heard a podcast with Carl Strong where he was shocked at how many bikes he saw at the shows were not properly aligned. He says that is super important to him, and his bikes. Often its the little things like this that can make a frame cost more than one that seems the same for less money.

Tim

This comment echoes what Doug Fattic was saying above, methinks.

I don't know titanium--my only experience was with my CT-1, but I can say without question that a couple of custom steel bikes that I have ridden were dead nuts on alignment--at least I think that is what I am responding to--and felt more precise, stable at speed etc.

Ranked (of recent frames) for me it would be Mooney-Serotta CSi-Nobilette. None were built for me, all were purchased used. The Nobilette even looks like it was ridden hard and put away wet, and yet with all of them there is something special there. And it would make sense that on a one-off from a master builder, you may well be working to the .001" rather than the .01"--and have had the experience on the frame jig so that you tack and weld in such a way that there is virtually no need to force the frame back into alignment when the welding/brazing is finished.

They call people who can do this "master craftsmen" for a reason.

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by fourflys

interesting discussion for sure..



So, I think in most cases, it comes down a lot of how certain brands market themselves and how they tell their story..

Now the real question from the comments above is what kind of car does OldPotatoe drive? Inquiring minds need to know! I'm guessing Alfa Romeo.. probably newer, but I could see Peter cruising around in an older Spider..

He has posted about VWs that he owned.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by mcteague

With regards to the alignment comments; I heard a podcast with Carl Strong where he was shocked at how many bikes he saw at the shows were not properly aligned. He says that is super important to him, and his bikes. Often its the little things like this that can make a frame cost more than one that seems the same for less money.

Tim

Alignment is a funny thing. Obviously we'd all like everything to be perfect, but in the real world, that's not possible, but it doesn't always matter.

Plenty of folks have jammed 130mm rear hubs into frames designed around 126 hubs and learned there's often a fair amount of wiggle room and it's just fine. Cannondale straight up aligns the rear dropouts off the centerline of the frame, and then tells people do use a wheel that's dished off center to counteract that.

On the other hand, sometimes the wrong thing out of alignment can create a real issue. I wrote about my experience with Battaglin here:

https://forums.thepaceline.net/showthread.php?t=280833

The frame was way out of alignment--easy to see the wheel sit crooked, and so bad the disc brakes wouldn't work without some pretty intense "facing"--but once it was all set up, crooked wheel and all, it rides perfectly fine according to my wife.

When it comes to issues of alignment, sometimes it matters and sometimes it doesn't. And I'm not sure most of the buying public has any idea whose frames are generally in good alignment or not. I would be skeptical that people here would be to predict whose bikes were aligned well and whose were aligned poorly based (if it were somehow possible to get enough bikes independently measured).

[bigman]

No good reason.

[hummus_aquinas]

How does this thread have zero moots photos this far in?? ps this is my least ridden bike ahhhahaha

[Andy340]

When I bought my first TI bike, the dealer had Lynskey and Moots - I went for the Lynskey as the frame was significantly less cost and I didn’t have any relationship / preconception of either brand. Also, I was in TN at that time so a local brand was an advantage. Moots was a higher quality frame but not > 1000$ better for me.

Later when I went custom, neither brand was a consideration for me as they primarily build stock frames / bikes so I can understand why these brands are being compared.

If I had to pay 13k for a stock bike, I would pick a Specialized Aethos

[michaelmj11]

Originally Posted by EPOJoe

I was just over looking at the prices on the Moots web page and I was struck by the fact that Lynskey is selling their American-made Ti bikes during their summer sale for roughly 3K and Moots is selling their American-made Ti bikes for roughly 13K. As a long time owner of a Legend Ti, it always seemed that neither Lynskey or Moots really did anything elaborate with their tubing (shaping, swagging) so does the Moots merit all the extra cost? I have heard folks go on about how nice the welds look on the Moots, but are nice looking welds worth 10K? And really, how much nicer can they look?

I think Moots is coasting on its old accolade’s and is not any better than Lynskey, Litespeed, Seven Cycles, or a handful of other titanium manufacturers. They certainly are not anywhere near the quality of Bingham Built

I am not sure if this point of view has already been mentioned, but I am a welder, and an avid cyclist. A year ago I applied for a job with Moots through Indeed.com and spent about a month and a half emailing back and fourth with them, trying to jump through every hoop they wanted etc. regarding employment background, what have you . It seemed like we had gotten to the point where the guy I had been talking to was ready to say “sure come for an interview” when suddenly he handed the whole communication over to somebody else (this after weeks of back and forth, providing samples of my welding, pictures etc.). Well, this second person started giving me the runaround and hemming and hawing. In the mean time Indeed.com had suggested another welding position that had opened up in the same town as Moots (Steamboat Springs). So applied for this second job, figuring that at worst I could weld for them for a while, and continue to apply with Moots, and get to know the town/people. So, I called Moots receptionist to say “hey I am going to be in town in 2-3 days to interview for this other position (the other job’s owner was about to go on vacation), is there any chance I could buy you guys lunch/dinner, or otherwise simply sit down with you and chat rather than having to spend another handful of weeks/months emailing back and forth? I even emailed the hiring personnel the same message/question (I never got a reply).

So, I drove over (1400 mile trip one way). Spent 24+ hours driving straight through, got to town exhausted around 3PM, with the interview scheduled for the next day. It is a small town, and I had never been there before. I checked my email, still had not heard a reply from moots, so I drove by to at least lay eyes on the place (I did the same for the other job I was applying for). Moots has a reasonable sized parking lot, and it was 75% empty and had a couple nice trees shading the place, so I parked. I took a look at the front door and Moots had a sign saying something like “due to pandemic we are not giving tours and entrance is only by appointment” so I did not even knock. I gave the receptionist a call to say “hey I made it to town like I had let you know about earlier, I have not gotten a reply to the emails I sent 2 days ago, and just wanted to touch base and say I was in the parking lot if folks wanted to say ‘Hi’ or setup a meeting for later.”

I did not hear anything back from them until I got an email later that night where the first person I had been in contact with at Moots had this to say:

“I am stepping back in here as I just read an email that you were in the parking lot earlier today. What are you thinking?

We are flat out right now, insanely busy, we do not have time to entertain anyone that just pops by unannounced.

We are looking for the right fit with our team along with the necessary skill sets. At this point your approach to employment at Moots has given us the indication that you are not the guy we are looking for. I am going to ask that you respect our decision and please do not interfere with our day to day operations.

Regards

Redacted

Moots Cycles”

To say I was blown away would be a complete understatement. The main point of offering to buy them dinner etc. was because they keep mentioning how busy they were.

I spent a few extra days in town biking/hiking around. I had a few run-ins with 2 of the local bike shops. In one of them were a few former employees of Moots, and they let me in on how things had been working at Moots recently.

Apparently a few years ago a Fortune 500 Executive (Brent Whittington) bought out Moots from the previous owner ( https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton...h=6745bcaf462f )

The local bike shop mechanic said that “When new management took over they pulled a Trump, and anybody who was not a “Yes” man was either fired or shouldered out”. The mechanic even mentioned that he had worked at Moots back when Kent Eriksen was there; but that the entire atmosphere at Moots has changed and that it is more about production, and less about quality than it used to be. An example the mechanic gave, was that the current General Manager at Moots had been in a low level position with no management experience until he went on a bike trip with the current owner, and a week later was promoted not to the manager of his section, but the General Manager.

I then made a point of speaking with a few other locals and most mentioned similar things. Like “you expect new management to change things, but there have been A LOT of things things changing over there recently”

Moots comments about why their frames cost so much more than others usually includes something like “we do a 2 pass welding process”. I would be surprised if most manufacturers didn’t use a 2 pass process. Titanium is easy to burn (heat to the point where the metal surrounding the weld weakens) when you weld titanium (especially stuff as thin as a bicycle, you usually us Pulse Tig). Off the top of my head, I can think up a handful of ways to speed up the process of welding while preventing metal weakening, say simply work on two joins/welds at once (weld one up, then work on the second while the first is cooling off). So I would argue with Moots when they say “We do this better so pay us more”, I think it could more accurately be summarized by “We have a longer history, and we are coasting on and milking that history for all it is worth, so pay us more”

[alfordjo]

My Moots - 2000 Vamoots - Purchased as a frame only a few years back with OldPotatoe built wheels.

Moots - Flip.jpg

[truth]

Originally Posted by michaelmj11

I think Moots is coasting on its old accolade’s and is not any better than Lynskey, Litespeed, Seven Cycles, or a handful of other titanium manufacturers. They certainly are not anywhere near the quality of Bingham Built

I am not sure if this point of view has already been mentioned, but I am a welder, and an avid cyclist. A year ago I applied for a job with Moots through Indeed.com and spent about a month and a half emailing back and fourth with them, trying to jump through every hoop they wanted etc. regarding employment background, what have you . It seemed like we had gotten to the point where the guy I had been talking to was ready to say “sure come for an interview” when suddenly he handed the whole communication over to somebody else (this after weeks of back and forth, providing samples of my welding, pictures etc.). Well, this second person started giving me the runaround and hemming and hawing. In the mean time Indeed.com had suggested another welding position that had opened up in the same town as Moots (Steamboat Springs). So applied for this second job, figuring that at worst I could weld for them for a while, and continue to apply with Moots, and get to know the town/people. So, I called Moots receptionist to say “hey I am going to be in town in 2-3 days to interview for this other position (the other job’s owner was about to go on vacation), is there any chance I could buy you guys lunch/dinner, or otherwise simply sit down with you and chat rather than having to spend another handful of weeks/months emailing back and forth? I even emailed the hiring personnel the same message/question (I never got a reply).

So, I drove over (1400 mile trip one way). Spent 24+ hours driving straight through, got to town exhausted around 3PM, with the interview scheduled for the next day. It is a small town, and I had never been there before. I checked my email, still had not heard a reply from moots, so I drove by to at least lay eyes on the place (I did the same for the other job I was applying for). Moots has a reasonable sized parking lot, and it was 75% empty and had a couple nice trees shading the place, so I parked. I took a look at the front door and Moots had a sign saying something like “due to pandemic we are not giving tours and entrance is only by appointment” so I did not even knock. I gave the receptionist a call to say “hey I made it to town like I had let you know about earlier, I have not gotten a reply to the emails I sent 2 days ago, and just wanted to touch base and say I was in the parking lot if folks wanted to say ‘Hi’ or setup a meeting for later.”

I did not hear anything back from them until I got an email later that night where the first person I had been in contact with at Moots had this to say:

“I am stepping back in here as I just read an email that you were in the parking lot earlier today. What are you thinking?

We are flat out right now, insanely busy, we do not have time to entertain anyone that just pops by unannounced.

We are looking for the right fit with our team along with the necessary skill sets. At this point your approach to employment at Moots has given us the indication that you are not the guy we are looking for. I am going to ask that you respect our decision and please do not interfere with our day to day operations.

Regards

Redacted

Moots Cycles”

To say I was blown away would be a complete understatement. The main point of offering to buy them dinner etc. was because they keep mentioning how busy they were.

I spent a few extra days in town biking/hiking around. I had a few run-ins with 2 of the local bike shops. In one of them were a few former employees of Moots, and they let me in on how things had been working at Moots recently.

Apparently a few years ago a Fortune 500 Executive (Brent Whittington) bought out Moots from the previous owner ( https://www.forbes.com/sites/carlton...h=6745bcaf462f )

The local bike shop mechanic said that “When new management took over they pulled a Trump, and anybody who was not a “Yes” man was either fired or shouldered out”. The mechanic even mentioned that he had worked at Moots back when Kent Eriksen was there; but that the entire atmosphere at Moots has changed and that it is more about production, and less about quality than it used to be. An example the mechanic gave, was that the current General Manager at Moots had been in a low level position with no management experience until he went on a bike trip with the current owner, and a week later was promoted not to the manager of his section, but the General Manager.

I then made a point of speaking with a few other locals and most mentioned similar things. Like “you expect new management to change things, but there have been A LOT of things things changing over there recently”

Moots comments about why their frames cost so much more than others usually includes something like “we do a 2 pass welding process”. I would be surprised if most manufacturers didn’t use a 2 pass process. Titanium is easy to burn (heat to the point where the metal surrounding the weld weakens) when you weld titanium (especially stuff as thin as a bicycle, you usually us Pulse Tig). Off the top of my head, I can think up a handful of ways to speed up the process of welding while preventing metal weakening, say simply work on two joins/welds at once (weld one up, then work on the second while the first is cooling off). So I would argue with Moots when they say “We do this better so pay us more”, I think it could more accurately be summarized by “We have a longer history, and we are coasting on and milking that history for all it is worth, so pay us more”

Wow, thanks for this perspective! Are you welding titanium frames now?