Alternatives to Rivendell

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by Davist

Looks nice, those chainstays though, with that 1x it's a 2 chainer. No wheelies for sure...

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

What IS that thing for? City bike but gearing to climb trees(?).

ahhh..it's for 'selling'...

Peter, if I had coffee in my mouth, it would have come out my nose.

[gregj]

I'm not sure what you mean by "like a Riv." Yes, there are many talented and experienced builders who can build a lugged frame set, as fancy or understated as you want. But most builders use more or less standard geometries, whether they are road, touring, Rando, cross, etc.

I don't know of any that has developed the same unusual geometry that Riv has (slacker angles, loooong stays, placing the handlebars high, etc.) and offers them as a standard product.

Riv's bike geometries (and even some tubing dimension?) are posted online, so I suppose you could find a custom frame builder who is willing to copy the geometry, and then you'd have a bike with the Riv ride and fit, but built by someone else.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by gregj

I'm not sure what you mean by "like a Riv." Yes, there are many talented and experienced builders who can build a lugged frame set, as fancy or understated as you want. But most builders use more or less standard geometries, whether they are road, touring, Rando, cross, etc.

I don't know of any that has developed the same unusual geometry that Riv has (slacker angles, loooong stays, placing the handlebars high, etc.) and offers them as a standard product.

Riv's bike geometries (and even some tubing dimension?) are posted online, so I suppose you could find a custom frame builder who is willing to copy the geometry, and then you'd have a bike with the Riv ride and fit, but built by someone else.

I respect that you want to defend Riv. and you probably own one but I dare say the Brits and the French would like to have a word about building (designing) bikes with slack angles and long chain stays. And last time I looked Grant and friends don't actually make bikes they design them.

[weisan]

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[charliedid]

Originally Posted by weisan

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[gregj]

Originally Posted by charliedid

I respect that you want to defend Riv. and you probably own one but I dare say the Brits and the French would like to have a word about building (designing) bikes with slack angles and long chain stays. And last time I looked Grant and friends don't actually make bikes they design them.

I'm happy to be corrected. And I agree with your point about Grant not building. But I still think even the Brits and French don't have a bike that is similar to the current Riv design. I'm comparing Jack Taylor touring bikes, audax bikes, and French rando bikes.

Obviously, there have been long chain stays, slack angles, and combinations of these elements elsewhere, but the overall design "philosophy" of using these with high handlebars, sloped tt, etc. for their standard bike lines (esp with non drop bars), I think is unique (note I didn't say better or worse).

(I have no personal interest here. I do respect and like Grant, but I have not ridden these recent Rivs. I did pick up a mid-90s Riv, but it is nothing like the current ones geometry-wise, only cosmetically. )

[beech333]

I don't understand these posts. If you like Rivendells, buy a Rivendell. If you don't like them, buy from someone else. Why do you feel the need to drag someone's name/business through the mud? Does it make you feel better?

Clearly, the OP wants a Rivendell, but feels slighted in some way. That's fine, buy what floats your boat. If your intent was to bash the company, well then you're just being a jerk...who still wants a Rivendell.

I've got a couple Rivs(Atlantis, Saluki, and Quickbeam) and really like them. I also have some bikes they probably would frown at(Litespeed, Merlin, Della Santa), but I like those too. Just get a bike and go ride.

I would listen to what Doug Fattic says though, as he is well respected. Another thought could be Jeff Lyon, but he is not local.

[PacNW2Ford]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

What IS that thing for? City bike but gearing to climb trees(?).

ahhh..it's for 'selling'...

Well, not all cities are flat. Ever seen downtown Seattle?

[kingpin75s]

For those that are not a fan of the long chainstays Rivendell is running these days, what specifically is the issue for you if the context is a city bike?

While I am very sensitive when it comes to chainstay length and mountain bikes, I am not clear why people have concerns about them on a city bike.

My experience riding a Big Dummy for the past decade has shown me that a very longtail bike can still handle well so I struggle to see why a much shorter Riv w/long stays would be an issue on a city bike as such.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by gregj

I'm happy to be corrected. And I agree with your point about Grant not building. But I still think even the Brits and French don't have a design tradition that is equivalent to the current Riv design.

Obviously, there have been long chain stays, slack angles, and combinations of these elements elsewhere, but the overall design "philosophy" of using these with high handlebars, sloped tt, etc. for their standard bike lines, I think is unique (note I didn't say better or worse).

(I have no personal interest here. I do respect and like Grant, but I have not ridden these recent Rivs. I did pick up a mid-90s Riv, but it is nothing like the current ones geometry-wise, only cosmetically. )

I think we know where ea. other is coming from.

Gotta run and buy a new pair of cycling shoes...I mean Crocs!

No harm.

[bfd]

Originally Posted by beech333

I don't understand these posts. If you like Rivendells, buy a Rivendell. If you don't like them, buy from someone else. Why do you feel the need to drag someone's name/business through the mud? Does it make you feel better?

Clearly, the OP wants a Rivendell, but feels slighted in some way. That's fine, buy what floats your boat. If your intent was to bash the company, well then you're just being a jerk...who still wants a Rivendell.

I've got a couple Rivs(Atlantis, Saluki, and Quickbeam) and really like them. I also have some bikes they probably would frown at(Litespeed, Merlin, Della Santa), but I like those too. Just get a bike and go ride.

I would listen to what Doug Fattic says though, as he is well respected. Another thought could be Jeff Lyon, but he is not local.

I agree in part, that if you want a Riv, get one from them. However, Grant has stated that his bikes' geometry are very similar to the old touring bikes from the 80s. Still, his bikes today have much longer chainstays and higher handlebar.

If you really want a builder other than Rivendell, then Nobilette or Waterford are probably your best bet as they both build or built frames for Riv.

Another option that others have mentioned is Dave Wages/Ellis Cycles. Dave is great to deal! Last year, I bought his wife's bike and love it. It is a very comfortable bike that you can ride all day. Dave built it with clearance for tires up to 35mm, and may 38mm, tires. I'm currently running 28mm tires, but plan to go larger when they wear out. The bike is a beauty and was one of his show bikes at NAHBS, here's a picture:



Good Luck!

[fiamme red]

Grant's cycling philosophy has changed drastically over the past 25 years. Here's a scan of an article in July 1996 Bicycle Guide, the title of which was "Timeless, Not Retro":

http://bhovey.com/Masi/Scans/Bicycle...Rivendell1.htm

http://bhovey.com/Masi/Scans/Bicycle...Rivendell2.htm

http://bhovey.com/Masi/Scans/Bicycle...Rivendell3.htm

http://bhovey.com/Masi/Scans/Bicycle...Rivendell4.htm

The 15 mm extended head tube on that frame looks pretty normal compared to new Rivendells. And the article mentions that "the chainstay length for a Rivendell is a very long 42.5 centimeters."

[Big Dan]

Get the Riv...then get the Waterford.

[Doug Fattic]

Originally Posted by beech333

I would listen to what Doug Fattic says though, as he is well respected. Another thought could be Jeff Lyon, but he is not local.

I've been writing down some explanations about how frame geometry needs to change based on the kind of handlebars being used and the intended use of the bicycle. It's a big subject. I'll post those thoughts later.

Coincidently I got a call while I was writing on this subject thread from Jeff Bock - my recommendation as the best first choice out of the many good ones already mentioned. He had just gotten a new pressure pot sandblaster and had to share his joy on how much more efficient it is compared to the standard kind. He wondered why I hadn't insisted he get one a long time ago. We laughed about that.

While I was on the phone with him, I asked about his philosophy of building a more relaxed riding bicycle. He used to work in a Raleigh store and has a lot of knowledge about the geometries on bicycles with upright handlebars. It is obvious his thoughts are similar to mine. More later.

[Doug Fattic]

Originally Posted by gregj

I'm not sure what you mean by "like a Riv." Yes, there are many talented and experienced builders who can build a lugged frame set, as fancy or understated as you want. But most builders use more or less standard geometries, whether they are road, touring, Rando, cross, etc.

I don't know of any that has developed the same unusual geometry that Riv has (slacker angles, loooong stays, placing the handlebars high, etc.) and offers them as a standard product.

Riv's bike geometries (and even some tubing dimension?) are posted online, so I suppose you could find a custom frame builder who is willing to copy the geometry, and then you'd have a bike with the Riv ride and fit, but built by someone else.

This is a huge subject and would be much easier to explain in a conversation. Grant’s frame designs are not unique but rather finds a more uncommon niche. Those of us that were the original American frame builders right after the bike boom of 1970 came into bicycling as racers (Jeff Bock and I are exceptions). When NAHBS was in Portland many years ago they took a picture of all of us together that had been building for 30 years or more (in other words started in the 70's). I asked everyone how they got started and every one said because they were racers. Bruce Gordon went into making touring bikes but that isn't how he started. I was never a racer although I trained thousands of miles with them (I was barely good enough not to be dropped as long as I didn't have to often take a pull).

Up until about 20 years ago most of the kind of bicycles I and my colleagues made were go-faster bicycles for recreational cyclists. In other words racing bicycles with the edge taken off. Occasionally I made a touring bike - especially after Bike Centennial. As the wanting-a-good-bicycle population aged, fatter tires and a more upright position made their appearance. Jan's Bicycle Quarterly brought back to our attention French designs. I can't remember a single customer being interested in what we now call a Randonneuring bicycle in my 1st 30 years of building.

If Chicago the OP really likes the look of Rivendell lugs than that is his obvious best choice. If he is okay with various lug designs, then that opens up many possibilities. I’m also guessing that his desire for a Rivendell is based on wanting a more relaxed and upright bicycle position. Part of his quest is going to be based on the kind of handlebars he wants to use. That preference changes the geometry requirements of his frame.

Just this April, I finished a new bicycle for my wife (who is an excellent cyclist and as strong as me). Some years ago I had converted her touring bicycle into a kind of hybrid style with MTB straight handlebars with a 6º bend. This was for medium distance rides. She rides her go-fast bicycle on Century rides. What made her want a new bicycle is that she rode my lightweight bicycle with "North Road" handlebars - the kind with an M shape found on English 3 speeds. Immediately she understood how different that bike rode than her converted touring bike with MTB bars. She really wanted one because our riding has gravitated towards MUTs at a more casual speed. And it was obvious on her test ride what the differences are between her 3 bicycles.

The design of my North Road frame is different (and has to be different) than a touring or ordinary road bike with drop handlebars. Upright bars puts your butt further back requiring a slacker seat angle. When the seat tube goes slack so does the need for the head tube to slacken as well or you will get massive toe overlap. This is more critical for casual slower riding because the cyclist is more likely to make a slow turn by turning the front wheel Instead of leaning). Also the bottom bracket height can be lowered because they aren't being used to pedal through corners at speed. That makes putting a foot down at a stop more comfortable. And a slacker seat angle requires longer chain stays - which are desirable anyway if a rear rack is desired.

My wife's bike with 71ª angles and long chain stays is still a nimble riding bike. It has 650B X 42 tires. The tubing is very lightweight with a 1" top tube with 7/4/7 walls.

I want to emphasize that swapping out handlebars from drop to upright does not work well for most frames (even vintage bicycles). Each kind of bar needs their own frame design to optimize the rider's position to those bars. I think this is a seldom understood concept with those that are not well versed in frame design.

If Chicago was one of my framebuilding class students (I taught my 1st class in 1976), I would place him on a stationary fitting bicycle equipped with his chosen seat and handlebars (perhaps swapping out various options). Once the bicycle position is established, then I design the frame around the seatpost and stem that position the bars and saddle. In other words the frame is fitted to the person instead of the cyclist being fitted to a frame. That is why they are custom frames. i know this post is really long and yet I've barely scratched the surface of this subject.

Here is a picture of my wife's new bike. Eventually I'll get around to lowering the handlebars a bit. The stem needs to be modified and she was anxious to try it out before that could be done.