Why would we build better bike infrastructure? I once saw a cyclist run a red light!

[tuscanyswe]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

It depends what traffic laws we're discussing. Cars exceed the speed limit far more often than bicycles, but bicycles go through red lights far more often than cars.

Well the statement said " bikes and cars break traffic laws at roughly the same rates." i can only assume that means all the laws.

I have a hard time believing this considering i know cars break them all the time since basicly no cars ever go the speed limit. My point is that this is so common that its basicly not seen as breaking a traffic law.

[93KgBike]

What's in the videos posted above? NSFW? Don't wanna see some snuff film neither...

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by bikinchris

Traffic studies have shown that bikes and cars break traffic laws at roughly the same rates.

Maybe and if CAR infrastructure plans had to be approved by cyclists, none would pass. Unfortunately, it's the other way around.

What's in the videos posted above? NSFW? Don't wanna see some snuff film neither...

For right above..intersection, kid on a bike on the right, car runs red light, hits car, crashed car hits kid on bike..came close to some pedestrians..

[benb]

I see cars run so many red lights every day I actually have a hard time believing cyclists are any worse than cars.

But the problem with education for cyclists is cyclists and cycling advocates could never agree on what system to teach people.

You would have a big argument between the folks who think Vehicular Cycling ala John Forrester (RIP) is what should be taught and the folks who think "Cycling with a Cyclist inferiority complex" is the way to go. Right now I think the Cycling Inferiority Complex people have pretty much won the battle at the moment with all the advocation for broken bike lanes in cities, so they'd probably be teaching people all the stupid behaviors we're complaining about! Hug the curb, turn left from the right curb, dismount at every intersection and walk/use the crosswalk, ride the sidewalks, etc..

You'd just be training in stupidity, and then the car folks would probably go and advocate for changing the law to require us all to be stupid an inefficient in our cycling and have to walk across every intersection and use sidewalks and such.

Right now the laws let us practice vehicular cycling and competitive/athletic road riding pretty much requires we ride that way... you don't want to do anything that might encourage the government to outlaw vehicular cycling and force all of us to ride like those delivery riders.

[93KgBike]

One of the reasons that almost all suburban communities built after the mid-1960's do not have 1:1 roadway:sidewalk ratios is the the American Civil Rights movement utilized the public sidewalks to peacefully demonstrate for the expansion of Constitutional rights and protections to all American citizens, in suburban communities.

There are other historical and developmental challenges to creating this kind of infrastructure.

Houston partnered with the corporations that needed workers from communities with low car/home ownership, and they built 300 miles of dedicated bike trail connecting those communities to their jobs.

Who cares what they do in NYC? It's a police state... not an exemplar.

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

For right above..intersection, kid on a bike on the right, car runs red light, hits car, crashed car hits kid on bike..came close to some pedestrians..

Thank you. I commute by bike with the kids everyday. Don't want to see that. Cheers!

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Maybe and if CAR infrastructure plans had to be approved by cyclists, none would pass. Unfortunately, it's the other way around.


For right above..intersection, kid on a bike on the right, car runs red light, hits car, crashed car hits kid on bike..came close to some pedestrians..

The issue is really what are we moving: people or cars? The infrastructure as-is says "cars" with the implication that cars move people. More recently, there has been a change to "move people" and sometimes that involves cars. The infrastructure isn't set up for sharing. Walking, using scooters, cycling, driving, and taking public transportation are all viable options, but traditional planning focuses on driving. The result is that arteries developed in the mid to late 20th Century are dangerous for the other options.

52 year old commuter. Not a kid. Also, not "close" to a pedestrian but sent one to the hospital.
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/08...killed-in-nyc/

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by benb

I see cars run so many red lights every day I actually have a hard time believing cyclists are any worse than cars.

But the problem with education for cyclists is cyclists and cycling advocates could never agree on what system to teach people.

You would have a big argument between the folks who think Vehicular Cycling ala John Forrester (RIP) is what should be taught and the folks who think "Cycling with a Cyclist inferiority complex" is the way to go. Right now I think the Cycling Inferiority Complex people have pretty much won the battle at the moment with all the advocation for broken bike lanes in cities, so they'd probably be teaching people all the stupid behaviors we're complaining about! Hug the curb, turn left from the right curb, dismount at every intersection and walk/use the crosswalk, ride the sidewalks, etc..

You'd just be training in stupidity, and then the car folks would probably go and advocate for changing the law to require us all to be stupid an inefficient in our cycling and have to walk across every intersection and use sidewalks and such.

Right now the laws let us practice vehicular cycling and competitive/athletic road riding pretty much requires we ride that way... you don't want to do anything that might encourage the government to outlaw vehicular cycling and force all of us to ride like those delivery riders.

RIP John Forester? I hope not!

"Cycling advocates" (i.e., segregationists) treat cyclists as pedestrians on two wheels. They don't see that for cycling to be an effective means of transportation, people have to be able to ride safely at speeds greater than 10 mph.

[jtakeda]

I just had a man who was crossing against a red yell “don’t you follow the lights?” At me as I was going straight on a green light.

Made me think of this thread.

Infrastructure just doesn’t work that well in big cities. There’s always a group of people who are gonna mess it up for everyone, pedestrians, cyclists and drivers who block intersections alike.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by tctyres

The issue is really what are we moving: people or cars? The infrastructure as-is says "cars" with the implication that cars move people. More recently, there has been a change to "move people" and sometimes that involves cars. The infrastructure isn't set up for sharing. Walking, using scooters, cycling, driving, and taking public transportation are all viable options, but traditional planning focuses on driving. The result is that arteries developed in the mid to late 20th Century are dangerous for the other options.

52 year old commuter. Not a kid. Also, not "close" to a pedestrian but sent one to the hospital.
https://newyork.cbslocal.com/2019/08...killed-in-nyc/

I think you are overstating the move to non car transportation. The US is a car centric nation. The infrastructure from 'bed room' communities to the highway system was put in place in the 50s and even tho it seems 'more' people are looking for other ways to get around rather than a car..the percentage is still really, really, REALLY small. PLUS, it's add-ons and band-aids to the above mentioned transportation infrastructure. Unless there is a fundamental change in the way people live, work and move around..it's just is not going to change much.

Perhaps if energy is scarce(NOT expensive, that makes little difference), but the resulting anarchy will be a much bigger problem..stock up on fuel and ammunition...$2.50 per gallon gas doesn't help....

I'd like to see a 'percentage of' gas tax, rather than decades old, flat amount..and use that to fix the above or at least make a dent in it.

The United States federal excise tax on gasoline is 18.4 cents per gallon

The US is BIG..so any comparison to any cycling centric/mass transit city or country in Europe is apples and oranges. I email with a guy who lives in western Netherlands and when he has to drive 100 KM, he views it as a YUGE cross country adventure..I almost drive that to nanny my grand kids...

[CSKeller]

What a horrible video.

It just proves that you can be doing everything right and still draw the short stick.

I commute to work 21 miles each way. along much of my commute there is a paved shoulder about 3-5 ft wide. About 8 miles of the road is chip seal with loads of loose gravel and other road debris, glass, trash, needles, nails, etc. I try to ride to the right of the white line but sometimes have to ride in the lane to avoid debris.
There is another 7ish miles miles of road where the pavement is srelatively smooth and the wide shoulders are somewhat clear of rode debris. I usually try to ride about 2 ft to the right of the white line...

No matter what, I would guess about 40% of all the traffic that passes me is driving on or straddling the white line!!! What is up with that??!! There needs to be BETTER DRIVER Education!!

Many people I work with bring up the 'I saw a biker running a red light' excuse to rationalize that cyclists shouldn't be on the road...Umm, I see probably 10+ cars running red lights on eact segment of my commute, and see the same number driving in the dark without lights on.

2018 was the 3rd consecutive year of having over 40,000 motor vehicle deaths https://ohsonline.com/articles/2019/...le-deaths.aspx People are not trained, pay too much attention to their stupid phones, DUI, DWI etc. instead of paying attention to guiding a 2+ ton missile!!!

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

I think you are overstating the move to non car transportation. The US is a car centric nation. The infrastructure from 'bed room' communities to the highway system was put in place in the 50s and even tho it seems 'more' people are looking for other ways to get around rather than a car..the percentage is still really, really, REALLY small. PLUS, it's add-ons and band-aids to the above mentioned transportation infrastructure. Unless there is a fundamental change in the way people live, work and move around..it's just is not going to change much.

Perhaps if energy is scarce(NOT expensive, that makes little difference), but the resulting anarchy will be a much bigger problem..stock up on fuel and ammunition...$2.50 per gallon gas doesn't help....

I'd like to see a 'percentage of' gas tax, rather than decades old, flat amount..and use that to fix the above or at least make a dent in it.


The US is BIG..so any comparison to any cycling centric/mass transit city or country in Europe is apples and oranges. I email with a guy who lives in western Netherlands and when he has to drive 100 KM, he views it as a YUGE cross country adventure..I almost drive that to nanny my grand kids...

I think we're on the same page. I have no illusions that we have built an infrastructure around cars. The thing we want to move is people, though. A great example of bad planning is Denver airport (complete with Blucifer). You basically need to take a car to get there, but all you really need to move is a person and their bags. It took years to get the light rail in, and every time I fly in, it's just not worth the hassle. In New York, I try to favor public transportation when I fly, particularly to JFK --- the train is predictable, but traffic almost never is.

There was a retrospective on the Netherlands recently that went over the fight for bike traffic there in the early 1970s. People were completely against it. Now, it seems like an obvious choice.

There was just a piece on the radio (cough, NPR) this morning about how the bike routes in NYC are piecemeal --- they don't fully connect.

There is still a lot of work to be done to get away from band-aids and partial fixes.

[nickl]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

It depends what traffic laws we're discussing. Cars exceed the speed limit far more often than bicycles, but bicycles go through red lights far more often than cars.

The impact of an accident involving a motor vehicle is almost always much more deadly those involving cyclists disregarding traffic laws. That’s why the implications of a car or truck running a red light or similar infraction should be viewed differently. At least that’s the way law enforcement seems to handle it where I ride. BTW, I observe traffic laws when both riding and driving, as do almost all other riders I encounter.

[benb]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

RIP John Forester? I hope not!

"Cycling advocates" (i.e., segregationists) treat cyclists as pedestrians on two wheels. They don't see that for cycling to be an effective means of transportation, people have to be able to ride safely at speeds greater than 10 mph.

I was mistaken.. for some reason I thought he had passed.

I think what I was misremembering is that he's gotten old enough he isn't showing up at the transportation conferences as much and/or he's being shouted down by a bunch of millenials who think he's full of it and segregation is the only way. He's 89, and I think he is being dismissed as "out of touch" or some nonsense by people who probably don't have anywhere near the breadth of experience.

After all, riding over 10mph is for elitists! Really such a dumb thing. I rode to work this morning and maybe averaged 12mph. I successfully used Forester's ideas to cross a 5 lane road to take a left for about the millionth time even though I was riding slow with a big backpack in street clothes, no problem. Cars knew what I was doing, no one gave me a hard time, and I didn't delay anyone.

[93KgBike]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

RIP John Forester? I hope not!

"Cycling advocates" (i.e., segregationists) treat cyclists as pedestrians on two wheels. They don't see that for cycling to be an effective means of transportation, people have to be able to ride safely at speeds greater than 10 mph.

Ranchers don't send cattle and calves down the chute at the same time, for reasons based on physics and causality.

[justindcady]

Originally Posted by CSKeller

No matter what, I would guess about 40% of all the traffic that passes me is driving on or straddling the white line!!! What is up with that??!! There needs to be BETTER DRIVER Education!!

This. 100% The cheapest way to improve things is to actually focus on driving your vehicle and keeping it within the bounds as laid out/painted on the surface. Simple...right?

I can't ignore the fact that if I'm ever involved in some sort of incident with a car, based on what I see every day riding and driving to work, it'll be from the rear because of a car "drifting" into the 3-5ft space that is supposed to be "mine" while the driver is too busy monkeying around with their phone/grabbing a drink/picking up that toy for their kid in the back seat (I've got two kiddos of my own...if they drop something...they can wait until I'm stopped)/etc.