Where next for Campagnolo?

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by Black Dog

Probably thinking that the largest markets they sell to are Europe and Asia. Not North America. The conclusions drawn in this thread are broad and the perspective they are based on seems very narrow. It's a big world and we are not often at its centre.

Asia for sure. US market pretty small in comparison.

What's needed is wireless shifters and a wireless rear derailleur

Why is it ‘needed’? Besides install and set up, what would that add to the performance, function of this or any other electronic or mechanical group set?

[vespasianus]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

I have seen 1 Ekar group in the wild. I have literally never seen a 12 speed Campy group in the wild. It just doesn't exist where I ride in the midwest. Not uncommon on the Paceline, Campy probably feels bigger than it is given how much we talk about it here. I would love to see actual numbers to compare. My guess is that even sponsoring 1 WorldTour team is an over representation of their size. I literally see more microshift groups than Campy. It is super niche. The question is if their niche is growing or shrinking.

On my road group rides, there are often a few other guys on Campag- but all on 10 speed stuff - and riding older bikes. I am the only guy on modern disc stuff.

For my gravel bike, I have yet to see anyone else using EKAR. Even at large gravel events, I didn't see anyone. They may have been there, but they are not there in huge numbers.

What I will say, was at one event, in the muck of rain and mud, even the electronic stuff was making crunching noises. Mud in the derailleur and cassette is problematic no matter if you are running a cable, a wire or a wireless signal, which was a little surprising to me.

[Ewiser]

I think the biggest issue Campagnolo faces is that the average rider doesn’t buy bikes like we use to. In the past people would buy a custom frame then buy the components they wanted on their bike. Now they just buy a complete bike. An never think of changing anything on it. Never upgrade the group set or anything. Just get on the bike an ride.

[callmeishmael]

Originally Posted by vespasianus

What I will say, was at one event, in the muck of rain and mud, even the electronic stuff was making crunching noises. Mud in the derailleur and cassette is problematic no matter if you are running a cable, a wire or a wireless signal, which was a little surprising to me.

The only formal racing I still do is cx, and I'll say that electronic is a godsend there. Otherwise, with the best will in the world, you're recabling your bike 5 times a season. Also, while the shifting may crunch when there is mud everywhere, it remains accurate.

That aside, the only other situation where I've found electronic a real advantage is in time trialling, where the ability to have additional shifters on the base bars, and therefore be able to brake and shift at the same time, is an absolute game-changer. This is particularly the case on sporting courses, especially some marshalled ones where you have to be off your extensions a certain distance before a turn or intersection. If you get that wrong (easier than you might think, going at full gas on a course you may not know), then you have to go into the turn in the wrong gear and lose a ton of speed on the other side. It also means people aren't tempted into staying on the skis until the last possible second, which can be dangerous.

Otherwise, I completely agree, no-one needs electronic shifting. There is definitely 'something' to the sound and feel of a really well set up mechanical groupset. But the majority of the buying public like electronic a lot; you only have to look at the existence of Rival AXS and 105 Di2 to see that.

[GreenJersey]

Originally Posted by KonaSS

I have seen 1 Ekar group in the wild. I have literally never seen a 12 speed Campy group in the wild. It just doesn't exist where I ride in the midwest. Not uncommon on the Paceline, Campy probably feels bigger than it is given how much we talk about it here. I would love to see actual numbers to compare. My guess is that even sponsoring 1 WorldTour team is an over representation of their size. I literally see more microshift groups than Campy. It is super niche. The question is if their niche is growing or shrinking.

The more important question is which market share allows the company to be financially viable in the long term. It seems like avoiding the OEM market to take largest extent is not undermining the existence of Campagnolo

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by GreenJersey

The more important question is which market share allows the company to be financially viable in the long term. It seems like avoiding the OEM market to take largest extent is not undermining the existence of Campagnolo

Campagnolo sells everything they make. Estimates are in the 5-8% of the component market. BUT, they are now and have been very financially stable since the debacle in the late 80s and early 90s. Valentino sold off all of 'Campagnolo', like their magnesium forging division and concentrated on things like 'ErgoPower'.

sram and shimano's 'financial viability' is tied directly to OEM, particularly the lower end of the range. Biggest seller of 'bikes' is places like Costco and Walmart and shimano and others sell TONS of their stuff on these many millions, of bikes. The 'dance' between sram and shimano product managers each year is something to behold. I wouldn't describe that process as 'cordial'....

Higher end road and MTB a teeny, tiny part of their 'market'.

[Andy340]

There is a lot of nostalgia for Campagnolo as a brand (with myself included) but objectively their groups looked great in the past but may not have been so great functionally.
I scrimped and saved for Record in my youth and still remember delta brakes and the hidden arm crank: Gorgeous but heavy and not great functionally.
Had the first generation 10 speed groupset and experienced a crack in the alloy non-drive side crank arm as well as the front brake on the area where the pads are held - not great.
2nd generation 10 speed was better but I preferred the lever shape of 11 speed and have settled on that.
Ekar looks good but I’m hearing set up and maintenance is a challenge for shifting.

Where next? Revert to past - mechanical, good aesthetics with function in the background somewhere

[Matt92037]

Next?

Chorus 12sp EPS to compete with Ultegra Di2 and most importantly develop new 20-21mm ID Zonda and Shamal rim brake wheel sets. Same hubs, same spokes, etc, etc.

[thirdgenbird]

I wouldn’t be surprised to see super record and record mechanical get a light refresh to the new gearing, bcd, quick link, disc calipers, and logos. Development cost would be low, it would reduce production variation, and it would create continuity across the product line.

[vespasianus]

Honestly, SRAM and Shimano should be shaking in their boots, and not by Campag but by the tidal wave of cheap Chinese no name electronic group set that are coming.

On the MTB side, seen more people on Microshift stuff than I ever thought I would. Stuff works well it seems and is cheap.

I think SRAM and Shimano are going to need to move up market as well.

[callmeishmael]

Originally Posted by Matt92037

Next?

Chorus 12sp EPS to compete with Ultegra Di2 and most importantly develop new 20-21mm ID Zonda and Shamal rim brake wheel sets. Same hubs, same spokes, etc, etc.

I would love you to be right but I'd be (pleasantly) surprised to see new development in rim brake wheels now.

[rain dogs]

Originally Posted by Matt92037

Next?

Chorus 12sp EPS to compete with Ultegra Di2 and most importantly develop new 20-21mm ID Zonda and Shamal rim brake wheel sets. Same hubs, same spokes, etc, etc.

I kinda agree, kinda disagree with this.

Shamals need to go back to their roots. I'd guess that the latest Gen Shamals where designed to be a better Ksyrium, but that rim shape/concept is dead.

Original Shamals were aero. I think Campagnolo could easily get away with just two rim brake wheelsets. one Scirocco level, and one Shamal level. And maybe 1 or 2 alu disc. Hell, they could even be the same rim profile. Everything else carbon disc.

yeah, typing and thinking. thats what I would do. 1 alu rim profile (2 extrusions). 21mm internal. (sorry if it doesn't fit your frame). 35mm profile. Rim and disc. 2 finishes - polished, and mille in rim. So you'd have 2 extrusions and 5 alu. products differentiated by hubs, spokes and bearings (shamal) vs (scirocco).... rim and disc. Disc Shamal would be entry carbon maybe.

Just rambling.

[robertbb]

Originally Posted by oldpotatoe

Campagnolo sells everything they make. Estimates are in the 5-8% of the component market. BUT, they are now and have been very financially stable since the debacle in the late 80s and early 90s. Valentino sold off all of 'Campagnolo', like their magnesium forging division and concentrated on things like 'ErgoPower'.

sram and shimano's 'financial viability' is tied directly to OEM, particularly the lower end of the range. Biggest seller of 'bikes' is places like Costco and Walmart and shimano and others sell TONS of their stuff on these many millions, of bikes. The 'dance' between sram and shimano product managers each year is something to behold. I wouldn't describe that process as 'cordial'....

Higher end road and MTB a teeny, tiny part of their 'market'.

This is interesting. I suspect both (in particular Shimano) will lost a LOT of business to the Chinese brands when it comes to Walmart, Costco, Decathlon type bikes. Perhaps this is what informed their recent release of their CUES category of groups

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by robertbb

This is interesting. I suspect both (in particular Shimano) will lost a LOT of business to the Chinese brands when it comes to Walmart, Costco, Decathlon type bikes. Perhaps this is what informed their recent release of their CUES category of groups

There is NO doubt sram and shimano are feeling the 'pinch' when it comes to low priced(dumping?) components on these bikes. Just a matter of time before a sram or shimano type, maybe electronic, group ends up on these bikes. Go ahead sram and shimano, sue them...