On Female Frame Builders…

[PurpleBikeChick]

Originally Posted by jtbadge

... ask women .... how they are treated in cycling communities

I joined a ladies bicycle club for a more supportive, less judgmental experience.

[PurpleBikeChick]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

Really curious why this was (without naming the builders) if you feel like sharing. I think part of the hurdle female frame builders have to overcome is that customers intuitively seek builders that reflect who they are.

1. Caletti’s Adventure Road appealed to me (in retrospect) because the geometry was similar to my bike of 20 yrs - the top tube slants down (my height/femur length require sloping). The first look stuck with me.
— His frame was the one all others were compared to & had the 2 specific requirements I absolutely wanted.
2. Website content (no idea if he wrote it) appealed to me. Personality, philosophy, approach. As was a total newbie. I needed someone who lead me through the process.
— It is surprising how many builder websites have little to no information.

[Waldo62]

I bought the Luna frame because I feel it's important to support women builders. Too bad Margo doesn't build anymore. Her work is gorgeous.

[Clancy]

I would guess people growing up in the tropics cannot understand how snow must feel.

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by PurpleBikeChick

I joined a ladies bicycle club for a more supportive, less judgmental experience.

I gotta add..when I was i the trenches..and we sponsored 2 bike teams, one male, one female and OMG..the women were a pleasure to deal with..the men were a bunch of entitled arseholes..

When I first came back to Colorado..went into Morgul-Bismark..worked Sunday's(junior guy)..worked with a part time woman wrench and she was pretty good but wonderful with customers(men and women)..the 'service manager' was a putz..went to lunch everyday and came back ****e-faced..then went home early..

[truth]

Originally Posted by Clancy

I would guess people growing up in the tropics cannot understand how snow must feel.

I saw snow once and it wasn't cold or wet like people say; I don't know what they're going on about.

[Dude]

I think Clancy’s point is the most valid here. Collectively - even individually - we won’t solve anything as we don’t/can’t/haven’t empathized enough to understand what the many root causes of “why there are so few female builders/mechanics/whatever in the industry.” Obviously some of us have first hand experience of those root causes, but they are the exception not the norm.

We are mostly a bunch of dudes. We don’t see things because we haven’t [i]needed[\i] to see things.

[Toeclips]

I wonder how many asian women are working in assembly lines building bikes for us.....if they can get parts of course

[sokyroadie]

They also have to be competitively priced if they want to remain in business, this is from Jackie Mautner's website. I am not paying 5 grand for a newish builder (male or female or LGBTQ) there are too many very experienced builders out there for way less $$. IMHO



"Prices for a custom, made-to-order frame set (frame and fork) start at $5,000"

[nmrt]

I have to whole heartedly agree! Without naming names, I see so many builders these days build "pretty" looking bikes with glittering paintjobs and asking north of $4.5K for a frame. My jaw drops, their bikes are so beautiful.
My jaw drops again when I find out they just started welding a couple of years ago. But now their bike was featured on the radavist or some blog or some website, that they decide to ask $4.5K. Why not, from their point of view, if people want to buy it.

For me, you gotta earn the premium you're asking by earning a reputation first. And reputaion can only be built over time.

Tom Kellogg charged $4.5K for this frame! Tom Kellogg! And the newbies are not even in the same book as him.

OK. Rant over.

Originally Posted by sokyroadie

They also have to be competitively priced if they want to remain in business, this is from Jackie Mautner's website. I am not paying 5 grand for a newish builder (male or female or LGBTQ) there are too many very experienced builders out there for way less $$. IMHO



"Prices for a custom, made-to-order frame set (frame and fork) start at $5,000"

[unterhausen]

If you want to stay in business long term, a frame with a wet paint job should cost somewhere around $5k. Someone just starting out can't charge that much for a frame. So it's a conundrum. A lot of builders don't see that going in, they think they can charge too little because they haven't totaled up how much they really need to charge in order to actually make money. When I see someone charging too little, I just figure they are going to be gone in 5 years or less. And I suspect they don't have insurance, because paying that bill is a significant amount of money per frame. The problem is there are lots of people volunteering to work too cheaply for reasons, so people can't charge enough. It has always been this way, and I doubt it will change.

The builders that have been doing it a long time that charge too little are likely to have a long suffering spouse supporting them. Or are doing it as a second job. I'd rather ride my bike than have a second job building frames. That's why it's a hobby for me.

[XXtwindad]

Originally Posted by PurpleBikeChick

1. Caletti’s Adventure Road appealed to me (in retrospect) because the geometry was similar to my bike of 20 yrs - the top tube slants down (my height/femur length require sloping). The first look stuck with me.
— His frame was the one all others were compared to & had the 2 specific requirements I absolutely wanted.
2. Website content (no idea if he wrote it) appealed to me. Personality, philosophy, approach. As was a total newbie. I needed someone who lead me through the process.
— It is surprising how many builder websites have little to no information.

This was my experience as well. I come from a journalism background, so words appeal to me. I also have very little comprehension of the science behind tubing, nor am I particularly keen on doing a deep dive on the topic. I chose the frame builder who has made my newest bikes (Pete Olivetti) on the basis of his warmth and personality. (On that note, I sincerely regret not having a frame made by the late Max Kullaway.)

One respondent here who evidently comes from an engineering background mentioned he was interested primarily in tubing or welds. But how many of us, presented with a naked metal frame, shorn of lugs or logos, could discern the builder?

My guess? No one.

So, essentially, when selecting a builder, you are making an emotional, visceral, or even aspirational (Speedvagen) decision. If the respondents on this thread are any indication, the overwhelming majority of people interested in hand built frames are male (and presumably of an age where disposable income isn’t a limiting factor)

From a marketing perspective, as a female builder, how do you market to that demographic? Does that place you at a competitive disadvantage? I don’t know the answer to those questions.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

One respondent here who evidently comes from an engineering background mentioned he was interested primarily in tubing or welds. But how many of us, presented with a naked metal frame, shorn of lugs or logos, could discern the builder?

My guess? No one.

It might be possible to spot Brad Bingham welds, but to be perfectly honest, as "perfect" as they look, it's not like they are functionally different than a Lynskey weld.

[Hellgate]

This paragraph caught my eye:



“For years, bikes were designed around a man’s body, reflecting—at least in part—who was doing the designing. Then many of the major bike manufacturers began targeting the women’s market with “women’s-specific” bikes. But the approach had its limits. “Women’s-specific bikes are supposed to fit this average or maybe idealized woman’s body. But a woman’s body can look like a lot of different things,” says Jackie Mautner, a Philadelphia bike builder who creates custom frames under the name Untitled Cycles. “I don’t think that [marketing] speaks to the diversity of gender, to the diversity of actual bodies.” [/QUOTE]

Either Trek or Specialized (I don't recall which) now offer only "Gender Neutral" bikes. IE: The same thing for everyone.

[CMiller]

Originally Posted by jtbadge

instead of hypothesizing on the internet or pretending there’s no problem, maybe actually ask women and people of color how they are treated in cycling communities and at bike shops. A lot of you will be surprised if you listen.

+1