Rivendell saved for now...

[William]

Originally Posted by Louis

You're wasting your time if you go to William for the work. Those Vacu-Holds are junk, and can't hold a candle to my Berol Giant.

Web pic, but identical to mine:

Naw, those were on the low end of the APSCO line, known for bearings and crank spindles wearing out early. They do okay though, kind of the 105 of the line.






William

[Louis]

Originally Posted by William

Naw, those were on the low end of the APSCO line, known for bearings and crank spindles wearing out early. They do okay though, kind of the 105 of the line.

Everyone knows that 105 is the best value out there. Sure, snooty folks can pay twice as much for a bit shinier polish on the Vacu-Hold, but the Berol is where the true sharpening craftsman goes for his tools.

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by Louis

You're wasting your time if you go to William for the work. Those Vacu-Holds are junk, and can't hold a candle to my Berol Giant.

Web pic, but identical to mine:

Plus, everyone knows that condition is everything. We'd need a drive side shot with a close up of any damage to even evaluate yours.

[Hellgate]

Axe throwing is a thing. One of the women at work went and said it was pretty fun. I asked if they served shots...

Oh, they have a league too.


https://www.urbanaxes.com/

[tctyres]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

So I'm not a finance guy by any means so this question might be silly.....but isn't this the reason that they offer a "line of credit"?

I always assumed that one of the reasons this financial tool exists is to help even out cash flow of a seasonal business. Why wouldn't Rivendell quietly get a line of credit to maintain cash flow during the lean months?

A sincere question.

dave

My guess is that money from the bank comes with deadlines and/or collateral in some form attached to it. It might also be that the company is maxed out in debt relative to income, or it might just be, as inferred, that free money from customers is easier to manage.

Originally Posted by RivBike

Starting off with this, but it gets way better:

Holiday sales here were lousy. We lost $2,900 today--calculated by the cost of keeping the doors open, the daily overhead, and the net profit on sales that came in. Overall, a good year, but we could use a little boost. How about a gift certificate for $20? Spend it whenever. This isn't another Hail Mary thing. We're not that terrified this time around. It's just that we are draining too fast from a reservoir that's not where it ought to be, and if you can buy credit here, please do. It isn't risky, I promise. This is the nature of a business that is underfunded and requires relatively huge outlays of money months in advance of receiving the inventory that takes six months to a year to sell.

[Hawker]

I've enjoyed watching The Profit on CNBC for almost three years now. A very successful businessman comes in to help struggling businesses, puts his own money in, becomes a partner and turns things around....nintey percent of the time he is successful. Everything from restaurants, apparel manufacturers, candy stores, drum companies, flower shops, watch makers, furniture makers, wine companies and baseball memorabilia manufacturers. Interestingly, he knows very little about the products...but he is a good business person. Widgets or bagels...the principles of business success seem to be the same. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Profit_(TV_series)

The common denominator is an owner with a great product who is a poor/mediocre business person. Mostly because they are;

A. too set in their ways.
B. too myopic.
c. technology challenged.
d. unwilling to dump inventory and focus on what sells.

Perhaps the company should consider some outside consulting? But find the right person or people isn't easy.

[David Kirk]

Originally Posted by Louis

One guess and one snarky comment:

1) They might have tried, and the banks said "No."

2) Why pay a bank interest, when you can get free loans from your customers?

Both of those could be true.

I think if it's #2 then they might be "penny wise and dollar foolish" - the uncertainty and weird feelings that come along with asking your customers from no interest loans has a real financial downside. Just looking at this thread will tell you that any number of people here would have considered a Riv in the past but now they are off the list.

I hope they pull out of it and never feel they need to do this again. They offer cool stuff and the market says there's a place for it and I think that they can succeed if they handle it right.

dave

[belopsky]

Since their last hail mary they’ve only made worse decisions. IMO.

I know nothing about running a business

[eddief]

to get a line of credit? If things are tight and they are on a cash basis with their vendors, then a line of credit may not be available. And yes, a quiet line of credit would seem better than asking your customers for help.

Much of my addiction to bicycles is anchored in the mythology of Grant Peterson and Douglas Brooks. May they both have a happy and prosperous new year.

Originally Posted by David Kirk

So I'm not a finance guy by any means so this question might be silly.....but isn't this the reason that they offer a "line of credit"?

I always assumed that one of the reasons this financial tool exists is to help even out cash flow of a seasonal business. Why wouldn't Rivendell quietly get a line of credit to maintain cash flow during the lean months?

A sincere question.

dave

[hokoman]

I brought this thread out from the dead after reading his email and actually ordered some misc stuff the first time around. I went on to his blog to see if there was something I missed - asking people for money is completely foolish, and if anyone funds him, then they are naive. This is an excerpt about his shifters - I could summarize it, but that would take away from how out of touch he is with running a business.

We got notes on the Bamboo Harvester (Silver2) (name to be determined sometime) shifter. Here's a revised drawing (or dwg as it's referred to by people who refer to dwgs constantly):
(Pictures not copied here)
The colored areas are being revised to our exacting, scientistic specs. This is one of a handful of "before I die" projects that I want to complete. I really honestly don't care how few care or buy it, but I do hope people see it as a zero-nonsense, beautifully conceived manual shifter that is kind of a "last gasp" product in a bicycle age that is undeniably macho-electronic-electric. To use this and say it sucks is to blame the pencil for the lousy novel you're writing. This is a 100 percent potential shifter, and most people want 100 percent guaranteed perfect shifts shifters.

Can you see the funkiness of that? I want this sooooo badly. I really do, actually, care about reactions and how others feel about it, but I think what I mean to say is that I wouldn't like it any less even if I were the only one who liked it, but I know there are at least 50 others. We've got a lot of time and money in on it. It's been a work in progress for 3 years. It almost ruined a 30-year friendship with a Japanese guy, but we cleared that up. We (RIV) gave up a lot to get it -- details not appropriate here--and I don't feel great about that, but we WILL have it.

We're getting a 3-D printed version in a couple of weeks. Then they'll be heading off into the black hole, aka Chinese New Year, for 2 weeks, and we'll lose momentum, and we'll pick it up again in March, April.

This is where a 13-hour flight might help to speed things up, but I can't stand flying. I don't fear it, I just hate sitting down all that time, and the lack of sleep and rigmarole.

So he spends over 3 years on a shifter that has cost him a ton of time and money, and hopes there are at least 50 others that do too. Ok, let's just pretend that you sell 50 at $200. You just made $10,000. What did it cost to go into production? WOW.

BTW, I love the show "The Profit" - We need to get Marcus Lemonis to pay Riv a visit.

[bfd]

Originally Posted by hokoman

So he spends over 3 years on a shifter that has cost him a ton of time and money, and hopes there are at least 50 others that do too. Ok, let's just pretend that you sell 50 at $200. You just made $10,000. What did it cost to go into production? WOW.

This reminds me of Grant's classic interview with Mike Barry Sr, who recently passed away, may he RIP, and how Grant tried really hard to get Mike Barry to agree with him about the "downsides" of STI/Ergo shifters:

MB: I know you are not going to like this, but I believe that the biggest improvement in bikes in the last fifty years that I have been around them is derailleurs and shifters. There is no comparison between the old stuff and the new derailleurs with STI or Ergopower. We have the Japanese to thank for that. We would all still be riding campag Super Record if Shimano and SunTour hadn't made them change their ways. Don't get me wrong, there is a certain aesthetic and simple quality to the Super Record stuff but the cheapest Shimano now works much better.

GP: I'm not the arbiter of taste, but although I think today's derailleurs are as functionally good as derailleurs have ever been, they lack the style of the old ones, and they don't work world's better than a top derailleur from the '80s. It's sort of like comparing a $399 3.4 megapixel digital camera from today with a Canon or Olympus or Rollei rangefinder from back then - which is better is hard to say until you define "better." No doubt today's shifting is faster and more convenient, but the difference In a non-racing situation, just a guy out on a lonely road needing to downshift for the climb or a tailwind-well, how hard is it, even with a "crummy" old Super Record? You ease up a hair on the pedals and pay a small bit of attention for a fraction of a second, and bingo, you're in.

MB: Oh yes. It works quite well but with STI/ERGO one doesn't even think about it. changing gear just becomes a natural reaction.

GP: Hmm.. well, yes, but from my observations and limited experience, it goes beyond "natural reaction" to the point where riders start shifting even when there's no need to. I think it's like a full guy walking around with a chunk of a cheeseburger in his mouth, and a Camelback full of a chocolate shake and the straw's in his mouth. Shifts occur because they're so easy, and they become almost reflexive, even when there's little or nothing to gain. I think a case can be made for maintaining reasonable convenience while removing irresistible temptation, and that's where downtube shifters and bar-ends come in; and I don't like the looks of the others, either.

MB: I admit down-tube levers make for a much cleaner, aesthetically pleasing bike but I find it difficult to see that bar-end controls have any aesthetic or mechanical virtue over Ergopower.

GP: Well, I suppose you can get used to something if you're exposed to it enough. But at this stage of my life I'd take a Shimano Tiagra aero lever over any integrated lever, because they look better to me and fit my hand better. Outside of competition and riders who for medical reasons can't move their hands around, I see STI and Ergo as a way to make bikes more attractive to those riders who associate "Integration" and "high tech" and "change" as improvements. They offer "brainless shifting," but shifting's already easy enough; and they turn riders into compulsive shifters.

MB: I cannot see what is wrong with "brainless shifting." After all the bike is a tool for transporting oneself under one's own power with the least amount of effort.

GP: It's hard to counter the "tool" argument, but another way to look at it is that it"s a whole world in itself, and reflects the values arid personality and attitude of its rider. If a bike is just a tool, then we all ride super-thin TIG-welded steel, powder-coated black, or maybe aluminum. In that world, your Mariposa bicycles, with their gorgeous integrated racks wouldn't exist. I'm not denying their function, but there are cheaper and faster ways to achieve it. For the racer the bike is just a tool, but to somebody who loves bicycles, I think it's more.

MB: Well, sure, but there have always been beautifully made tools, and making a tool beautiful doesn't make it work any less efficiently, it just makes it more enjoyable to own and use. Just look at some of the wonderful wood planes tha have been produced. Cheaper, less well-finished tools often do an equally good job, but they are not so enjoyable to own and use. If you're really enthusiastic cycling or wood work whatever, you just get more enjoyment from having really nicely constructed equipment.
I don't you should have to think about changing gears. If I'm climbing a hill out of the saddle, as I am every morning on my rides in the park, it is great to be able to change to a lower ratio without sitting down and taking my hand off the bars It took me a long time to accept the new shifters but now have them I would never go back. I won't say that I don't enjoy riding my vintage bikes with their down tube levers and I love riding my bikes equipped with the much more difficult Campag Paris-Roubaix shifters, but they are not my choice for everyday use. For the average rider I think it is the one new innovation that should not be ignored.

GP: You have a point. But personally, I like feeling the derailleur move, and fine-tuning it. It's not a burden, and you miss that in indexing-all you feel is the click. But anyway, I wish manufacturers who have near monopolies, as Shimano and Campagnolo do, would also feel a responsibility to provide options. At one point I'd have said they have that responsibility, but I'm mellowing, and nowill just say I wish they felt one.

MB: I certainly agree that there should be options. I also think manufacturers have a responsibility to supply spare parts for components made just three or four years ago.

Grant Peterson: Well - it feels good to get past that nasty integrated shift issue, and I agree about the spares. Anyway, I'd like to know your thoughts on the American bike industry....

So classic! Kudo's to Mike Barry for not being bullied!

link: https://www.randonneursontario.ca/history/mbarry1.html

[belopsky]

Thanks for posting the above!

[54ny77]

^^bar ends and begging for handouts from customers calling it "future credit" is a unique business model. It's even worse than watching the slow inexorable death of Serotta. At least the employees built beautiful modern bikes with state of the art materials and production equipment, which can lead to other jobs. What the heck is a Rivendell funky bike builder going to do? Make artisinal handrails?

[dancinkozmo]

Originally Posted by belopsky

Thanks for posting the above!

i linked the full MB GP nterview in the mike barry rip thread if youre interested...he'll be missed...

https://www.randonneursontario.ca/history/mbarry1.html

[bfd]

Originally Posted by dancinkozmo

what is up with that ??? how much weed have they been smoking since legalization ???

I keep looking at the above picture and can’t stop thinking of this bike:





Let’s see: long chainstays, check! Super steep seat tube, check! Terrible baby carriers, check! Yup, has it all!