Mountain lion attack

[oldpotatoe]

Kirk007 sums it up nicely.

As to the killing of the cougar: ethical right and wrongs go out the window; the amount of pressure the public would assert on Fish and Game if it didn't kill the cougar is too great for an agency that is already right leaning and predisposed based on antiquated approaches to wildlife management to not react by killing the cougar. Strike back mentality rules. As sad and perhaps wrong for this individual, not killing it would probably be worse for cougars in general as there would be calls for increased take by hunting etc., etc. No winners here, not humans, not cougars.

and

There is no biological reason for humans "to control" carnivore populations. They are very capable self regulators. Indeed more and more studies are showing it does more harm than good.

and

There is a hunting season only because some people like to kill animals for sport. No one eats cougar meat. There is no reasonable use for a cougar pelt

[merlinmurph]

Two years ago, we were staying in the Livingston MT area and I went out for a dirt ride. In the middle of nowhere, after seeing nothing/nobody for quite awhile, I saw this sign. I'm from the east, and seeing a sign like this scares the crap out of me. It was a fantastic ride, though, until I hit a dead end.....

C360_2016-09-20-13-01-31-295_x by merlinmurph, on Flickr


This guy wasn't so lucky

C360_2016-09-20-13-21-01-736_x by merlinmurph, on Flickr

[Kirk007]

Originally Posted by sitzmark

Can disagree, but it's a true statement. WA statute provides for legal hunting of Cats.

I suspect the origins of the legislation are economic-driven and have nothing to do with biologic justification - can't say for sure, wasn't part of the process. I do know that many years ago my relatives in CO who were ranchers killed predators on sight to protect their investment in livestock. Had noting to do with killing animals for sport or trophies over the fireplace - purely economic. It's only logical that at some point such a practice leads to a conflict of constituencies and legislative efforts to address the concerns of all sides. For good or bad, the killing of Cats is now "controlled" by law. Some people follow laws and some people don't. Some people find ways to exploit laws for personal or commercial gain...

Yes, I live here and part of my job description in carnivore advocacy/protection and that is indeed the law. Most western states have hunting seasons for cats. Many still classify them as vermin that can be killed without limit.

Sure part of the original reason was economic and while the ranching community still claims this, the fact is that less than 3% of all cattle/sheep mortality is from predation. Nevertheless I had a rancher in New Mexico tell me that if she lost even one steer to a wolf, she would be bankrupt. (I would suggest that her business was already dead if this was the case).

There's more to it. Betty, the rancher in New Mexico, loved her livestock. Each one had a name. Losing one to a predator was deeply personal, the same as if one of us had our dog killed or perhaps cat eaten by a coyote. For others, there is a lot wrapped up in the Western "lifestyle" and rugged rancher mentality. A predator killing ones personal property, ones chattel, is a direct challenge to ones power to control and dominion over other living things. Suggested reading: William Kittridge - Owning it All.

Where things get really ugly on carnivores and control is with public lands ranching. Cattle ranching is very heavily subsidized by American taxpayers with low cost grazing allotments. One would think that, given they are using federal public land, that use restrictions reflecting the majority will (for instance in Washington over 70% support the presence of wolves in the state) would be a reasonable restriction. Not so, at least not from the perspective of most ranchers (and loggers and on and on).

No, for many (most?) in these communities, proximity confers greater right to use our public lands than the rest of us have, even if we are the majority. And my use of the word use is very intentional. Putting our natural resources to "good and wise use" is very much part of the judeo-christian mentality that prevails - these resources are here solely for man's use and enjoyment. And so shooting a cougar becomes an exercise of that dominion over the resources, and being a good shepherd protecting the useful animals from the bad, the evil.

Economics is a part, but only a small part of the conflict if folks take a hard and honest look at what's going on. For an extreme case, consider the Bundy family in Nevada; its refusal to pay even the low grazing fees, its take over of a National wildlife refuge in the claim that the federal government has no jurisdiction over public lands in the West. This is part of it too. The hate of the federal lawman telling these god-fearing folk what they can and cannot do. All the threads of the narrative are interwoven in a story of human hubris.

[Climb01742]

What did the cougar bring to this encounter? An instinct for survival. What did humans bring to it? A few centuries of baggage.

I grew up in Oregon. I love the west, but if we’re honest with ourselves, the tangle of motives is based more on myth and fantasies than fact. Indians were once seen as vermin too and dealt with accordingly.

I despair sometimes that our country can ever deal honestly with our baggage. Maybe this is just simple and limited and just one less cat in the wild, but to me (and my biases, cause I sure as heck have them) it feel like a tiny microcosm of so many bigger things we’ll never face because facing them means facing a very troubling history.

[Marc40a]

All I know is that if my house cats were larger, everyone in the house would be dead.

[Mzilliox]

Originally Posted by Kirk007

Yes, I live here and part of my job description in carnivore advocacy/protection and that is indeed the law. Most western states have hunting seasons for cats. Many still classify them as vermin that can be killed without limit.

Sure part of the original reason was economic and while the ranching community still claims this, the fact is that less than 3% of all cattle/sheep mortality is from predation. Nevertheless I had a rancher in New Mexico tell me that if she lost even one steer to a wolf, she would be bankrupt. (I would suggest that her business was already dead if this was the case).

There's more to it. Betty, the rancher in New Mexico, loved her livestock. Each one had a name. Losing one to a predator was deeply personal, the same as if one of us had our dog killed or perhaps cat eaten by a coyote. For others, there is a lot wrapped up in the Western "lifestyle" and rugged rancher mentality. A predator killing ones personal property, ones chattel, is a direct challenge to ones power to control and dominion over other living things. Suggested reading: William Kittridge - Owning it All.

Where things get really ugly on carnivores and control is with public lands ranching. Cattle ranching is very heavily subsidized by American taxpayers with low cost grazing allotments. One would think that, given they are using federal public land, that use restrictions reflecting the majority will (for instance in Washington over 70% support the presence of wolves in the state) would be a reasonable restriction. Not so, at least not from the perspective of most ranchers (and loggers and on and on).

No, for many (most?) in these communities, proximity confers greater right to use our public lands than the rest of us have, even if we are the majority. And my use of the word use is very intentional. Putting our natural resources to "good and wise use" is very much part of the judeo-christian mentality that prevails - these resources are here solely for man's use and enjoyment. And so shooting a cougar becomes an exercise of that dominion over the resources, and being a good shepherd protecting the useful animals from the bad, the evil.

Economics is a part, but only a small part of the conflict if folks take a hard and honest look at what's going on. For an extreme case, consider the Bundy family in Nevada; its refusal to pay even the low grazing fees, its take over of a National wildlife refuge in the claim that the federal government has no jurisdiction over public lands in the West. This is part of it too. The hate of the federal lawman telling these god-fearing folk what they can and cannot do. All the threads of the narrative are interwoven in a story of human hubris.

well stated. Man must control, it seems to be our nature. We like to make excuses as to why, but sometimes i think we just like to kill and control, and the excuses are only that.

[gdw]

It is sad that the cat was killed but let's cut to the chase. The mountain lion attacked two people and killed one. Since attacks like this are extremely uncommon wildlife officials tracked it down and killed it in an attempt to try to learn why and to prevent any possible repeat attacks. It would be nice if we could have discovered why it acted as it did without killing it but lions aren't fluent in English. Another mountain lion with better survival skills will take over it's territory and the odds of it attacking another person are miniscule.

[ptourkin]

More on the victim from an unlikely source:

https://www.instagram.com/p/BjEWH7LD...=outsideisfred

"outsideisfred: This 'mountain biker' killed by a Cougar outside of Seattle reads more as a progressive bicycle hero to me. Best I can tell they weren't well known in the Quid Pro Bro Instagram world and I seriously doubt they'd like to be remembered as a mountain biker to anyone that didn't read the story beyond the headline. Rest in ✌️"

"SJ Brooks, 33, was a manager at the Hillman City Collaborative, according to Brooks' LinkedIn profile. Brooks founded the Seattle chapter of Friends on Bikes and was interested in creating a community where women, trans and non-binary people of color can have fun on their bikes."

[72gmc]

[QUOTE=Kirk007;2368134]Where things get really ugly on carnivores and control is with public lands ranching. Cattle ranching is very heavily subsidized by American taxpayers with low cost grazing allotments. One would think that, given they are using federal public land, that use restrictions reflecting the majority will (for instance in Washington over 70% support the presence of wolves in the state) would be a reasonable restriction. Not so, at least not from the perspective of most ranchers (and loggers and on and on)./QUOTE]

That's a mentality I just don't get. But I'm just a Westerner all my life, and a lover of the outdoors. Not a rancher with animals to graze. Not inclined to develop a sense of entitlement to public land beyond my equal privilege to visit it.

I may need to re-read Bernard DeVoto's essays to remind myself that this is the way it's been for a long time.

[fiamme red]

Originally Posted by Hilltopperny

I’ve heard of sightings near where my cabin is, but at my home it’s more likely to see a black bear or even the occasional confused moose.

http://www.ktva.com/story/38243352/m...fb-live-stream

[earlfoss]

This is really important, insightful information on cougars and their thought process.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8jpTpKUQLcY

[Hilltopperny]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

http://www.ktva.com/story/38243352/m...fb-live-stream

I’ve seen their tracks, but I wouldn’t want to run into one of them either.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[pbarry]

Is this situation any different from a rock climber or alpine climber dying on a mountain? Nature involved with both, but far more climbers have perished in rock vs. man scenarios than cougar vs. man. Just asking.

[peanutgallery]

rocks are more dangerous

Originally Posted by pbarry

Is this situation any different from a rock climber or alpine climber dying on a mountain? Nature involved with both, but far more climbers have perished in rock vs. man scenarios than cougar vs. man. Just asking.

[cadence90]

Originally Posted by pbarry

Is this situation any different from a rock climber or alpine climber dying on a mountain? Nature involved with both, but far more climbers have perished in rock vs. man scenarios than cougar vs. man. Just asking.

Originally Posted by peanutgallery

rocks are more dangerous

A very experienced sherpa, Damai Sarki Sherpa, died just the other day on Everest, after loading an ill client onto a helicopter at Camp 2, in a completely open, apparently safe area. The helicopter had landed on a crevasse, which was larger than it looked from above. Sherpa helped the client into the helicopter, turned around, fell into the crevasse, and died. Crazy, sad.


.