OT: Electric Vehicles--anyone driving them or seriously looked at them?

[HenryA]

Love the Musk hate.
Excellent contribution to the discussion.

[bikinchris]

When do you people have time to do all of this long distance driving? I drive to work when I CAN'T ride my bike. Otherwise my driving is mostly short trips. Electric vehicles are very useful for about 80% of all driving most people do.

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by bigbill

I spent 27 years operating reactors in the Navy and I've read the official accounts of both accidents. The Russians were notoriously bad at nuclear power; the design of Chernobyl was the complete opposite of western plants. This design flaw was compounded by a bad decision and poor supervision. Flammable moderators (graphite) is something found in no other active plants. Fukushima was a bad infrastructure design with their emergency generator located below the wave surge. The Fukushima reactors are boiling water reactors designed by Westinghouse and are no longer produced. The US has a few still in service. All new reactors are Pressurized Water Reactors which are inherently safer due to the physics of the core.

A new concept being developed and tested are modular reactors. One project will install small reactors at a former coal fire plant. Steam is steam, so facilities that use fossil fuel to make steam can have their boilers replaced with a small nuclear plant.

The concept of "the sky is falling," concerning nuclear power has left the county vulnerable and ill-prepared when we want to shift to more electric vehicles and appliances. Wind and solar alone aren't the answer.

Our electric utilities have been privatized over the last thirty years, because, you know, capitalism knows better. Don't trust the government. Fukishima was the result of the same philosophy, and I think it's still being managed by a private company. I do not want a profit seeking management beholden to shareholders and not the public running such a dangerous place. Look at the recent Southwest debacle after decades of deregulation, and that company has not fired a soul and just promoted and gave raises to it's executives. At least they aren't crashing planes full of people. Yet.

[yngpunk]

Originally Posted by David Kirk

My wife is a researcher and science writer for NASA and her work points out something interesting and surprising. Even the dirtiest coal plant is more efficient than an ICE car. Meaning that if one looks at how much pollution an ICE car makes per mile and compares it to an EV that is charged by a coal burning power plant the EV/coal plant emissions are about 30% lower than the ICE vehicle.

So the worst case scenario of 100% coal power is better than our each driving our own private power plants around in the form of an ICE car. That’s good news. Even better is that every state in the nation uses a blend of power sources and that there isn’t a single state in the nation that uses only coal to produce electricity. Our state of Montana is pretty dirty when it comes to power production and yet 51% of the power generated in the state of Montana comes from renewables (hydro and wind leading the way followed by solar). So even here in a coal state the electricity used to power an EV results in much lower emissions than an internal combustion car.

It’s good stuff that very few people know about. The myth that driving an EV powered by coal is as bad or worse than an ICE vehicle is just that - a myth.

dave

DoE/EPA has a nifty tool that lets you compare EV vs ICE GHG emissions (including the GHG generated to produce the electricity to power the vehicle) based on your zip code. Check it out here:

https://www.fueleconomy.gov/feg/Find.do?action=bt2

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by bikinchris

I always like the hit pieces aimed at EVs. Like the battery mining is not great, but the process of exploring for oil, drilling, producing, transporting the crude, refining it, transporting for sale and then wasting roughly 66% of the energy in the gasoline is just stupid.
Internal combustion engines WASTE 66% of the energy in a gallon of gasoline.
This flip flops the energy leaving the electric generating station. Only 30% of the energy in the electric energy is lost between the power station and the rear wheels of the EV.

There was a Tesla the burned while driving this week and the story was RUSHED to national news detailing it took 6,000 gallon of water to put out the fire. No mention of the tens of thousands of ICE cars that burned this week. An ICE car is roughly 100 times more likely to burn for every mile driven than an EV.

Every Chevy Bolt was recalled due to battery fires. You'd have to go back to to 70s and the Ford Pinto for a recall in the ICE realm to compare. The fix for the Pinto was simple and cheap too.

100 times more likely? BS. Of course there more ICE vehicle fires. There's millions more on the road than EVs (a tiny percentage overall) in various states of repair.

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by bikinchris

I always like the hit pieces aimed at EVs. Like the battery mining is not great, but the process of exploring for oil, drilling, producing, transporting the crude, refining it, transporting for sale and then wasting roughly 66% of the energy in the gasoline is just stupid.
Internal combustion engines WASTE 66% of the energy in a gallon of gasoline.
This flip flops the energy leaving the electric generating station. Only 30% of the energy in the electric energy is lost between the power station and the rear wheels of the EV.

There was a Tesla the burned while driving this week and the story was RUSHED to national news detailing it took 6,000 gallon of water to put out the fire. No mention of the tens of thousands of ICE cars that burned this week. An ICE car is roughly 100 times more likely to burn for every mile driven than an EV.

Tens of thousands? In a week? I have to ask for a source on that one.

[dustyrider]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

We, as Americans, live in a wealthy bubble compared to the rest of humanity. It's not a natural state.

Louis CK tells a little story about he and his wife at a party telling a person from Tibet that they were so upset that their dog had to go into surgery for some issue, and the man broke out into laughter, because, well, who in the third world actually does that? It was an eye opener for him.

Yes Americans are wealthy when compared to non Americans, but what about when compared to Americans. If the average yearly income in the US is ~50k and the average debt of 40-50 years old is ~130k, how rich are we? I know that my yearly salary puts me into one of the richest % when compared to the world, but I’m a pauper compared to the folks that post here.

[buddybikes]

Originally Posted by Kirk007

We'll see. Policies easily change. BUT, without declarations like these there's little incentive for anyone - manufacturers, DOTs, engineers ... to figure out how to move us to more sustainable ways of living. Continuing to rely on fossil fuels and offering hopes and prayers for the millions currently being displaced or seriously impacted by climate change today, and the probably billions who will be impacted in the future - I don't know maybe some are willing to just say sucks to be you to that impacted population. I'm not.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

We need to drive less, tighten our homes up, plant a tree if you can.

[Mr. Pink]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

Again, no one is trying to convince you to buy an EV. If it doesn't work for you, it doesn't work for you. My wife and I just re-visited the issue ourselves and decided not to buy an EV. We will keep our Audi diesel for a few more years. But, that doesn't mean that an EV can't fill the role that the Audi currently fills.

Yes, they are. They are mandating it. By decree. I fail to see where choice comes in.

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

Many, many people in the U.S. live paycheck to paycheck, including many, many homeowners. That doesn't mean that they don't consider amenities when they rent an apartment or buy a home. (And, yes, I lived below the poverty line for more than a decade.)

Again, you imply there is some sort of choice in the matter. Most are happy to have a safe, clean roof over their head they can afford, which, in many places, require more than half of gross income to find.

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

Presumably, the owners in your condo complex decided as a group to fix the roof, and implement the $250/month surcharge, and they would likewise decide as a group if they wanted to install EV chargers? Sounds pretty simple -- don't install chargers if you don't want them.

But, in effect, we may have to, if we want to drive anywhere. How else will we be able to deal in the new electric only world? Besides, you have to fix the roof. My ceiling was leaking.

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

That's an easily verifiable statistic.

Go ahead. I'll wait. I find it a little hard to believe. But, then again, there's pickup trucks out there that are approaching six figures, which is super bizarre, but, that's America.

[jawnzcapital]

"Non-luxury prices also rose, but not as dramatically. On average, car shoppers in the non-luxury segment paid $410 above sticker price, a slight increase from October. The average non-luxury car sold for $44,584."

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average...from%20October.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

Yes, they are. They are mandating it. By decree. I fail to see where choice comes in.

You stated you live in CT. Are you being forced to buy an EV now? Are there any plans to ban ownership of ICE cars in the future?

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

Again, you imply there is some sort of choice in the matter. Most are happy to have a safe, clean roof over their head they can afford, which, in many places, require more than half of gross income to find.

I rented apartments for years. I always had a choice selecting my apartment.

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

But, in effect, we may have to, if we want to drive anywhere. How else will we be able to deal in the new electric only world? Besides, you have to fix the roof. My ceiling was leaking.

Do it or don't do it. It's your choice.

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

Go ahead. I'll wait. I find it a little hard to believe. But, then again, there's pickup trucks out there that are approaching six figures, which is super bizarre, but, that's America.

Gee, that took about 10 seconds:

https://www.kbb.com/car-news/average...e-sets-record/

[Mr. Pink]

Well, I stand corrected. That's stunning. As I said, no wonder nobody has any money.

edit: I can do the google, too. I was wondering if pandemic stimulus money affected that pricing, and, I think so. A buddy of mine who has part ownership of a restaurant was whining about a year ago about not getting the second check, because, yes, he had a new car lined up. There was a lot of that. Remember how used car prices went nuts? All that is calming down, just like they are now discounting new bicycles you couldn't even buy a year and a half ago. One wonders what will happen to auto pricing the next few years. Reasons why the Fed may be all wrong with interest rates.

Check out that post WW2 spike. Hoo boy.

[bikinchris]

Electric vehicles that charge more quickly will more than likely FREE us from the gas station.
Since you don't have to dig to place big tanks underground and you could do two things at once. Think of this: you're on a road trip and you're hungry. Normally, you would either gas up and buy junk food or nasty gas station food and scarf it down in the car. Or gas up the car, then drive to a better quality lunch somewhere else. But with electric vehicles, better quality restaurants can install charging stations and you stop for lunch at the restaurant and eat lunch while your car is charging.
You can also be on an off road trail somewhere and have a solar powered charging station somewhere electricity is NOT possible.

[pasadena]

Originally Posted by Mr. Pink

Fine with me. But, the governor of California and other politicians are mandating EV use by law. In just over ten years, all of California will not be able to buy a gas powered vehicle, by decree. No choice.

What's driving EV sales is not simply gov mandates. It's sales.

Economics and market competition have made companies go all-in.
Everyone severely underestimated the consumer demand for PHEV's and EV's. They are all aggressively trying to fullfill that market void.

CA (and 15 other states are considering the same) new car sales - EV and PHEV by 2035
Used car sales will remain 'everything is for sale as always'. Petrol cars and truck will be around and kicking for a long time.

The EU has banned ice sales by 2035, UK by 2030

Every automaker has set goals of making at least half, if not all new car sales to be ev's by 2030.
GM stated they will be 100% ev sales by 2030 (uh-huh...)

VW's last ice platform will be in 2026. All ice development has basically stopped at VAG and they have a 50-70% global ev sales by 2030 goal.

Every automaker has similar benchmarks. This is a global shift. CA may be in line with Europe, but this is going to happen whether CA sets a goalpost or not.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by pasadena

What's driving EV sales is not simply gov mandates. It's sales.

Economics and market competition have made companies go all-in.
Everyone severely underestimated the consumer demand for PHEV's and EV's. They are all aggressively trying to fullfill that market void.

CA (and 15 other states are considering the same) new car sales - EV and PHEV by 2035
Used car sales will remain 'everything is for sale as always'. Petrol cars and truck will be around and kicking for a long time.

The EU has banned ice sales by 2035, UK by 2030

Every automaker has set goals of making at least half, if not all new car sales to be ev's by 2030.
GM stated they will be 100% ev sales by 2030 (uh-huh...)

VW's last ice platform will be in 2026. All ice development has basically stopped at VAG and they have a 50-70% global ev sales by 2030 goal.

Every automaker has similar benchmarks. This is a global shift. CA may be in line with Europe, but this is going to happen whether CA sets a goalpost or not.

If the price of gasoline drops back down, there will be a lack of demand for EVS, unless they can address the cost, range, charging and other issues. People have short memories for this sort of thing.