E-bikes and exercise intensity

[Robot870]

Had one for about a year. Major workout with a spare battery......4hr rides on old MX trails and it was awesome fun!

[45K10]

The study is not very comprehensive as others have pointed out. I really don't care if people want to ride e-bikes or not.

However, I would love to see some good data on how e-bikes affect single-track trails in different areas of the country. I would also like to see some data concerning the safety of people riding e-bikes on single-track and if they pose more a risk to other trail users.

[benb]

There's no doubt you can get a workout without actually applying power.

Riding motorcycles at the track (paved) is a workout that to me feels a lot like snowboarding or skiing.

Not the same thing as riding a bike.

It could be an eBike shifts the workout away from a "road style" workout towards a "gravity bike" type ride.

The guys doing downhill MTB are getting a workout, it's just not the same thing. No different than MTB being different than road.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by 45K10

The study is not very comprehensive as others have pointed out. I really don't care if people want to ride e-bikes or not.

However, I would love to see some good data on how e-bikes affect single-track trails in different areas of the country. I would also like to see some data concerning the safety of people riding e-bikes on single-track and if they pose more a risk to other trail users.

Some studies show that (non-electric) bikes roughly the same amount of damage to trails as foot traffic per mile. So one argument is that bikes produce more total damage because riders typically do more miles. If so, then one could argue that eMTBs would do even more damage, by allowing riders to do even more miles.

I'm personally against eMTBs on single-track trails, but more due to the issue of the slippery slope: Once you let some type of motorized vehicles on single track, you open the door to other motorized vehicles.

[peanutgallery]

https://www.imba.com/education/emtb

Originally Posted by 45K10

The study is not very comprehensive as others have pointed out. I really don't care if people want to ride e-bikes or not.

However, I would love to see some good data on how e-bikes affect single-track trails in different areas of the country. I would also like to see some data concerning the safety of people riding e-bikes on single-track and if they pose more a risk to other trail users.

[benb]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Some studies show that (non-electric) bikes roughly the same amount of damage to trails as foot traffic per mile. So one argument is that bikes produce more total damage because riders typically do more miles. If so, then one could argue that eMTBs would do even more damage, by allowing riders to do even more miles.

I'm personally against eMTBs on single-track trails, but more due to the issue of the slippery slope: Once you let some type of motorized vehicles on single track, you open the door to other motorized vehicles.

This makes a lot of sense because I think the perception is that braking does more damage than pedaling. Riders who are clumsy on the brakes tear stuff up real fast skidding their knobbies downhill and around slow switchbacks and stuff.

Even if the eMTBs never allow you to "spin through" and ride a little bit of a spinning tire where you couldn't without the motor if they let you cover 50% more ground that's 50% more corners/switchbacks/downhills you might be skidding your tires & tearing up the trail on in the same amount of time.

[Ralph]

You could make the argument that on an E Bike.....you can ride further and faster....so on a 2 hour work out....with E bike going further and faster.....exercise output could be similar. After all....on both example comparing regular bike to E bike....you go all out for 2 hours either way.

But I don't think most of us ride that way. I have a 35 mile route I like to ride during the week. I'm definitely less tired after I do that ride on E bike than on a regular bike. I think it's because I make close to same effort for less time.

[45K10]

Originally Posted by peanutgallery

https://www.imba.com/education/emtb

Thanks I didn't know anyone had done any studies but the study:

https://b.3cdn.net/bikes/c3fe8a28f1a..._g3m6bdt7g.pdf

by IMBA's own admission was limited in scope and only tested one class of e-bikes and pertained only to "trail damage".

I feel there should be more data obtained especially concerning how riding e-bikes affects other trail users while both are using the trail at the same time.

My fear is someone in over their heads on an e-bike is going to plow into an equestrian or a hiker and then all bikes will be banned from the trails.

[redir]

Originally Posted by fa63

Not really; if you push just as hard on the e-bike (and you can do that), you just go a lot faster as that study indicated.

Yeah I understand that but they clearly insinuate that you get just as much exercise on the eBike versus a regular bike and of course the Internet runs with it as the truth. The reality of course is that for the same distance covered over the same time the eBike rider will do far less work. It's how motor doping works after all.

In the other thread I made a comment about using flippers at a swim meet.

Sure I can push flippers real hard too and get a great workout.

[benb]

As soon as an eBike gives you enough power that you can spin the rear tire through a loose section like a motorcycle/ATV they'll be a massive disaster for the trails.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by benb

As soon as an eBike gives you enough power that you can spin the rear tire through a loose section like a motorcycle/ATV they'll be a massive disaster for the trails.

Ebikes would be enveloped by the many trail advocacy groups that cover the MTB, motorbike and ATV worlds.

If we can make it work with motorcycles and ATVs, we can make it work with ebikes.

I think there's a frame builder who advocates for the trails not far from where he builds/rides.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Burnette

Ebikes would be enveloped by the many trail advocacy groups that cover the MTB, motorbike and ATV worlds.

If we can make it work with motorcycles and ATVs, we can make it work with ebikes.

Most of the public lands and open space where I ride my MTB (southeastern New England) are specifically marked "No motorized vehicles." So, it appears the way they "made it work" with motorcycles and ATVs was to ban them. The decisions to exclude motorized vehicles were probably made before the advent of the eMTB, but as eMTBs are still motorized vehicles so they would also be excluded under these rules (and probably should be).

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by Mark McM

Most of the public lands and open space where I ride my MTB (southeastern New England) are specifically marked "No motorized vehicles." So, it appears the way they "made it work" with motorcycles and ATVs was to ban them. The decisions to exclude motorized vehicles were probably made before the advent of the eMTB, but as eMTBs are still motorized vehicles so they would also be excluded under these rules (and probably should be).

Right, MTB and motorcycle/ATV have programs and some make distinctions where all can come (and join in maintenance programs) and some ban motorized vehicles.

If established groups observe ebikes as to do equal damage to trails as motorcycles and ATVs then I'm sure they will make that distinction.

I imagine squirting the throttle and spinning knobby tires up climbs churns the dirt. I have been with a group on a single track trail on human powered MTBs and we did a pretty good job of rutting the trail (I'm probably more guilty of this as I suck on a MTB).

In your estimation, does one ebike MTB rider's trip through the trail equal a group of six or eight MTB riders? How much more damage does the ebike do compared to a traditional MTB?

I haven't ridden an ebike MTB and cannot draw any conclusions from my own experience so I'll read the thoughts from those of you who have. It is an interesting angle.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Burnette

Right, MTB and motorcycle/ATV have programs and some make distinctions where all can come (and join in maintenance programs) and some ban motorized vehicles.

If established groups observe ebikes as to do equal damage to trails as motorcycles and ATVs then I'm sure they will make that distinction.

I imagine squirting the throttle and spinning knobby tires up climbs churns the dirt. I have been with a group on a single track trail on human powered MTBs and we did a pretty good job of rutting the trail (I'm probably more guilty of this as I suck on a MTB).

In your estimation, does one ebike MTB rider's trip through the trail equal a group of six or eight MTB riders? How much more damage does the ebike do compared to a traditional MTB?

I haven't ridden an ebike MTB and cannot draw any conclusions from my own experience so I'll read the thoughts from those of you who have. It is an interesting angle.

I get what you are saying, but I think you're suggesting to fine a level of distinction than is practical. eMTBs can have varying levels of power assist, from nearly none to a lot. While you could try to find out what level of eMTB power assist causes damage above or below some threshold, how would you formulate a practical regulation so it was clear which eMTBs were allowed and which weren't? But an even bigger distinction might be one of politics and perception. There are many areas were it was difficult to get access for standard MTBs, or where standard MTBs are grudgingly tolerated. In those areas, if a push was made to allow eMTBs (which most non-cyclists can't distinguish by eye for standard MTBs), it could lead to banning (or re-banning) of all wheeled vehicles. The main advocacy organization for MTBs in New England is the New England Mountain Bike Association (NEMBA), whose position on eMTBs is:

“The recreational use of electric and power-assisted bicycles, ORVs or ATVs on natural surface trails should be managed using the same guidelines and policies as other motorized vehicles.”

[benb]

I don't know about the eMTBs in terms of where they will end up falling on the spectrum of hiker -> MTBer -> eMTBer -> Horse -> OHV.

An X/C cross country race or a cyclocross race with 100 participants will do massive damage.

But 5 guys on ATVs can probably do that much damage in an afternoon. And horses can do some massive damage really fast too.

I kind of expect eMTBs to fall in very close to MTBs unless the riders start modifying them.

When you spin the tire on a MTB your pedal drops to the bottom of the pedal stroke as if you dropped your chain.. it takes a lot of care not to have to dab. If the eMTB does the same thing and the power drops to 0 cause you're not pedaling they will be fine cause that will cause the rider to behave like a regular cyclist. If "eMTB" ends up meaning something with a thumb/twist throttle you'll be able to set the pedals level and hold your body still and let the motor spin you up/through and then they'll do a lot more damage. It's way way easier to spin the tire on a dirt bike and maintain control than it is on a MTB.

The options here for Dirt Bikes and ATVs are extremely thin... private property and maybe one state park in Western Massachusetts. Most people that hobby means: 1) Buy a truck 2) Buy a trailer 3) Drive to NH where they let everyone rip everything to shreds.