It’s official, the bike industry has lost its way.

[unterhausen]

I have wondered why TA wasn't put on low-end hybrids a long time ago because of the lawyers. I was looking at hybrids for a family member and the cheapest ones had discs and QR. I know QR is cheaper, but that's nuts. Most people that own hybrids don't know how to make a QR work and aren't going to remember if taught. The DT Swiss style TA is perfect for those people. It works exactly like they would expect.

[benb]

That thing about braking vs shifting quality.

I really think the usage pattern of brakes vs shifting parts for these riders is completely reversed from us, they barely ever shift but probably brake more.

If you ride 10mph on a MUT for 20 miles you can do that without a single shift on a lot of MUTs. But you might be stopping 20x at crossings. Ride the same 20 miles on a hilly route that we might choose and you might shift 100 times but only come to a complete stop once or twice.

[Aaron O]

Originally Posted by benb

Online is indeed exaggerating like crazy. Particularly if you get a set with Sintered or Semi-Metallic pads you will go a really really long time before any maintenance is needed.

Depending on your use it could be years between pad changes & you might go 5 years without needing a bleed.

I've never had to replace all the fluid in a hydro system on my MTB. The first set I never had to bleed once after initial install. The current set I have is 7 years old and I've had to bleed them once.

Most of the online exaggeration about disc maintenance seems to come from:
- Cross guys riding early Avid cable discs, which were very fiddly compared to good hydros
- Use of the organic (faster wearing) pads
- Riding in some particular region with just the right kind of sand to completely destroy the organic pads once they were contaminated.

Gratzie signor! Appreciate the tips here...I don't have any crazy sand, and they've always felt fine.

As to your other (excellent) post - I do have one suggestion for a great brake that rarely gets used/mentioned - the brazed on center pull. Also great for larger road tires (and anything over 28 is large to me).

As far as dual pivot...my favorite combo is dual pivot front, single rear. It's a great mix of power/modulation. I have my favorite bike set up that way, and it's rad. (25c tires)

[berserk87]

Originally Posted by dpdan93

it's been discussed ad nauseam. I'm voicing my opinion like any one else here. Maybe a little open-mindedness would refresh this forum.

Yeah. Old Potatoe pointed out the obvious in his response (which are actually a reposting of your posts).

So open mindedness means trying to stop other folks from discussing stuff that you don't like. Which is, like, the opposite of that, but well...

Ok.

[chiasticon]

I would actually argue that hybrids and townie bikes are one of the best places for hydraulic disc brakes. some of the people who buy such things aren't exactly in the best shape. throw a 300 lb person on a 25 lb hybrid and send 'em down a hill, they're gonna need some powerful brakes.

not saying a V-brake wouldn't stop them, just that there's nothing wrong with more braking power in this case.

[gemship]

Originally Posted by berserk87

Yeah. Old Potatoe pointed out the obvious in his response (which are actually a reposting of your posts).

So open mindedness means trying to stop other folks from discussing stuff that you don't like. Which is, like, the opposite of that, but well...

Ok.

Well I was hoping someone would contradict me, LOL. So I just have to troll and bait you all again with this....I still think 1k is a bit of coin to get an occasional cyclist/commuter on a bike. Also I think hydro brakes can be manufactured cheap enough to offer em on a sub 1k price point machine. Although I'm a bit biased as I got a decent one year old leftover price for my Mtn. bike that had pretty much all the state of the art standards.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by gemship

Well I was hoping someone would contradict me, LOL. So I just have to troll and bait you all again with this....I still think 1k is a bit of coin to get an occasional cyclist/commuter on a bike. Also I think hydro brakes can be manufactured cheap enough to offer em on a sub 1k price point machine. Although I'm a bit biased as I got a decent one year old leftover price for my Mtn. bike that had pretty much all the state of the art standards.

So you're saying "my toys cost too much, they could make less profit and sell it to me cheaper!".

Well, that's everybody who ever bought anything ain't it?

[Ken Robb]

Originally Posted by gemship

Yation

I own a 2006 GSXR1000 sportbike, bought used nearly 5 years ago and I have never bled the brakes but I have confidence that they work fine as the pressure is there. Granted I don't go racing it, entering chicanes and 100mph but I do scrub off half my speed entering highway exit off ramps in a hurry.

One reason to bleed brakes on cars/motorcycles is so the fluid doesn't absorb so much water that it will generate steam and bubbles under the conditions you plan to ride. Racers who generate huge amounts of heat using maximum braking in competition may need to bleed their brakes between races or heats. A commuter might never brake so hard and long that he boils his fluid and his brakes may feel fine after 3 years. The catch is that the water is still accumulating in his brakes fluid and by then in a concentration high enough to cause corrosion inside the components and that will require pretty expensive repairs. I have heard of guys with internal corrosion of calipers who applied the brakes and found they wouldn't release. So change/bleed brake fluid at least every 3 years and sleep well.

OTOH I think that bikes that use mineral oil rather than hydroscopic DOT 3 or 4 brake fluid may be immune to water accumulating in the fluid?

[benb]

I always did all the maintenance on my Sportbike (Suzuki/Honda for me and I did a friend's triumph once) brakes on schedule cause safety of course... but...

IME street use is using like 1% of the brake capability out of the box on a bike like a GSX-R. The brakes on a bike like that are good enough to go right into a high level amateur race right out of the box and a typical race weekend would not wear out the pads or require work. I think the maintenance interval for brakes on my last Honda was 12,000 miles.. I'd change the pads on the interval and they weren't worn out even with track days included. "Fast Street Riding" is generally considerably below "First time track day" for pace & wear on brakes and most of the supersport bikes have brakes good enough for racing right out of the box. They still get brake work for safety when they get turned into racebikes but that's more about safety AFAICT than performance (braided lines & safety wire, etc..)

I never had any trouble with any motorcycle I had at the track in terms of brakes.. the brake systems on those bikes are flat out unbelievable.

I feel like some of the MTB systems are almost that good too. But I think they are all a bit of a PITA to maintain compared to motorcycles. All the tools and such just work better on motorcycles. The fittings are a little bit bigger.. the bicycle manufacturers are so obsessed with a few grams here or there they make the maintenance a little more annoying.

[madsciencenow]

I enjoyed reading through this thread and learned a thing or two along the way regarding disc brakes and TAs.

One thing that made me chuckle is the point about how disc brakes are a sales tool and a marketing ploy to sell bikes, which ironically is why I clicked on this discussion to begin with (I.e. great title for a post that guarantees I will click and read).

I don’t know if engineering could be used for better or not but ultimately C-dale and other manufacturers make a decision about how and where to deploy resources based on their business strategy is my assumption. Perhaps the underlying calculus is varied but ultimately it seems like the goal would be how you impact the bottom line in as positive a way as possible.


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[buddybikes]

What about hydro cable activated brakes? Are these any good? Are they worth upgrade from regular cable activated? Would assume maintence would be simpler.

[batman1425]

Hydro brakes actually offer a significant increase in accessibility for casual or new riders. This price point is a good one for them. I hear lots of feedback from customers about how much the like the light feel of the lever and the confidence they will always have the ability to apply the brakes regardless of their hand strength or how tired they are at the end of a ride. Most of this group is used to the largely ceremonial brakes of the past on low end bikes. Are modern well adjusted linear pull brakes a big improvement? Yes. But put your average rider on a linear pull vs a hydro bike and IME, 90% of the time, the pick the hydro for the reasons above.

[benb]

Originally Posted by steveandbarb1

What about hydro cable activated brakes? Are these any good? Are they worth upgrade from regular cable activated? Would assume maintence would be simpler.

Nope worse... you get cable maintenance + hydro maintenance. They are finicky/more complicated. But they get the job done on road bikes where the brifters are an issue.

I don't think anyone ever made cable operated hydro discs for MTB... Shimano made some integrated Brifters for rim brake MTBs back in the day, I had some XT ones, clearly a weight weenie thing at that point.. but usually MTBs have separate shifters/levers so it never made any sense to compromise with cables cause the levers weren't worth a lot of money... but I'm probably wrong and they did exist at one point.

No one has mentioned it.. there's no housing in hydraulic lines to corrode and start fighting the calipers from opening up when you release the lever. Another maintenance item that goes away.

[makoti]

Originally Posted by gemship

Well I was hoping someone would contradict me, LOL. So I just have to troll and bait you all again with this....I still think 1k is a bit of coin to get an occasional cyclist/commuter on a bike. Also I think hydro brakes can be manufactured cheap enough to offer em on a sub 1k price point machine. Although I'm a bit biased as I got a decent one year old leftover price for my Mtn. bike that had pretty much all the state of the art standards.

I spent $300 for my first sort of real bike in 1985. That's $715 today. It had tech on it from 40 years earlier. I don't really think $1K is that far out of line. Maybe a bit high, but for what you are getting? Might be a bargain.

[Jaybee]

Shimano M-3xx series brakes are way heavier than XT or whatever and they have longer (i.e. not one-finger) levers and look chunky, but they stop plenty fine, even for moderate trail use and are bombproof. They are $30/wheel at Jenson for you and me - i'm sure it costs next to nothing for Cdale to spec hydro as OEM in 2019. If all you're doing is commuting, you're probably looking at 3-4 years between pad changes and 5+ years for a bleed on hydro.

I also second the notion above that thru-axles make a ton of sense from an intuitive/liability perspective. Anyone else remember the early days of disc brakes when they would try to pull the QR front wheel out of the dropouts? And I'm sure everyone who's spend time in a shop has gotten to show someone that a QR uses a cam to tighten, and isn't just something you screw until it's tight. Which is ironically how a TA works.