OT Red Sox - say it ain't so Alex

[Rada]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

And pre-steroids Barry Bonds was still the best position player and hitter in the game.

His pre-1998 stats, when he says he started hitting the juice, were still good enough for the 10th best OPS of all time. So if you strip out his greatest years during the height of the steroid era, he was still one of the 10 best offensive players ever.

There's a reason the Giants gave him pretty much all the money to leave Pittsburgh.

Using that logic Pete should be in. Pete never cheated on the field, as Bonds did, but as a manager. On the field Pete had more hits that anyone in MLB history. Personally I don't think any of those guys should ever get in, including Pete, and I am a life long Reds fan who saw Pete play at Crosley Field.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Rada

Using that logic Pete should be in. Pete never cheated on the field, as Bonds did, but as a manager. On the field Pete had more hits that anyone in MLB history. Personally I don't think any of those guys should ever get in, including Pete, and I am a life long Reds fan who saw Pete play at Crosley Field.

He broke the one cardinal rule baseball has had for decades: Don't bet on the game.

[Rada]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

He broke the one cardinal rule baseball has had for decades: Don't bet on the game.

I get that and why I said he should never get in. Bonds and the rest cheated for years on the field in an era that was corrupt from the top down and why I don't think they should ever get into the HOF. Now with these new scandals and the slap on the wrist punishments handed down the integrity of the game itself is completely dead, at least to me. I don't think I will ever watch a game again.

[FlashUNC]

Originally Posted by Rada

I get that and why I said he should never get in. Bonds and the rest cheated for years on the field in an era that was corrupt from the top down and why I don't think they should ever get into the HOF. Now with these new scandals and the slap on the wrist punishments handed down the integrity of the game itself is completely dead, at least to me. I don't think I will ever watch a game again.

Eh, with Bonds and Clemens, they made sure fire Hall of Famers all the more Hall of Famer-y.

The line gets blurrier with guys like McGwire and Sosa and Palmeiro and the like. I don't think they compile the stats needed to get there without the help.

I get that's where things get sticky, but Bonds and Clemens? Totes should be in.

[Rada]

Originally Posted by FlashUNC

Eh, with Bonds and Clemens, they made sure fire Hall of Famers all the more Hall of Famer-y.

The line gets blurrier with guys like McGwire and Sosa and Palmeiro and the like. I don't think they compile the stats needed to get there without the help.

I get that's where things get sticky, but Bonds and Clemens? Totes should be in.

I get that is the line many people take, erase the juiced seasons and they still put up the numbers. To me the bottom line is they cheated. Multiple seasons. Period.

[fiamme red]

It was all the fault of the video replay guy!

https://nypost.com/2020/04/22/red-so...red-to-astros/

[wc1934]

Originally Posted by fiamme red

It was all the fault of the video replay guy!

https://nypost.com/2020/04/22/red-so...red-to-astros/

Cora was exonerated regarding the Sox, but not so re: Houston. Thus, we wont ever again see him in a Sox uniform.

[T-Crush]

As far as the Astros and the 2017 WS, here is an interesting observation -

From an article about Clayton Kershaw in Axios Sports –

Perhaps no team has lost as much (from the Astros cheating scandal) as the Dodgers, and perhaps no Dodger was damaged as much as Kershaw. He is a first-ballot Hall of Famer, a three-time Cy Young Award winner, a once-in-a-generation talent, and he will also be remembered for bad luck and bad outings in the playoffs. The biggest of those failures -- there's a compilation video online that has about 100,000 views -- was against the Astros in Game 5 of the 2017 World Series. Sports Illustrated's Tom Verducci found a single statistic that tells the story of that game better than any commissioner's investigation. Clayton Kershaw is known for his devastating curveball, and an equally weaponized slider, and he threw 51 breaking pitches to the Astros that night and they swung and missed at exactly zero.

Picking signs the old fashioned way is a tradition in baseball, and if you get caught, you get a 90+ mph heater in the ribs. Also a tradition. Using the replay camera/monitor is out of bounds. Vacate the title, and take the overs on how many Astros get plunked (assuming we ever get back to baseball).

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by XXtwindad

You think these two guys aren't in the Hall just due to steroids? Noted pricks. Having said that, they were both HOFers before flaxseed oil, etc.. They should be in.

Pricks that doped..along with McGuire, Sosa and others..disagree, they are cheaters on the same scale as Rose..HOW could they be in the HOF as demonstrated cheaters? Scumbags..big thumb's down.

[cgolvin]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

well, the Red Sox have traded away Mookie Betts (assuming it goes through), ushering in another 86 year drought in Boston championships.

It was a good run for a few years there.

I'm not implying he will be on par with Betts (few are), but I think you will enjoy watching Verdugo play. Check out some defensive highlights from last year -- his arm is elite (some teams wanted to sign him as a pitcher).

That is, unless you Boston fans eat him alive.

[soulspinner]

Originally Posted by saab2000

when people start getting year-long bans, or longer, it’ll change.

this

[madsciencenow]

Originally Posted by SpaceOdyssey

Connect the dots



Houston followed by Red Sox = Alex Cora

Hate to admit it but I think you are right.

This said, I wonder if everyone isn’t doing this and these two teams are the easiest targets? The reason I say this is that when you look into how they were doing this it seems so easy that you’d have to try not to do this (corporate world calls this a firewall). In addition, the last year or two has seen an increase in hitting numbers. People have speculated that MLB is juicing the ball but how exactly would they do this? I mean how’s a pitcher not going to notice? MLB has admitted they changed the stitching which resulted in a decrease in seam size but I don’t believe this alone explains better hitting numbers.

A couple other thoughts. Does this impact what a team might be willing to offer for Betts? He’s a great fielder but most teams are likely interested in his bat. If his numbers are partially a result of cheating then what will his productivity look like going forward? This said, he was good before Cora arrived but I still wonder.

One other thing I wondered about is if teams are routinely stealing signs, doesn’t this favor pitchers who work rapidly on the mound or are hitters able to get the signal regardless of how fast a pitcher tries to work?


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[72gmc]

I'd guess people have been doing this since signs were invented.

And while I tend to agree with you, Saab, I'm not sure one- or two-year bans are going to change things that much. MLB let the Barry Bonds fiasco go on until they'd made a pile of money off of him, these investigations are happening after lucrative World Series runs ... maybe I have leftover cynicism from the Bud Selig years but I feel the Lance comparison is apt: get away with it until the business is satisfied, then become an example.

[MattTuck]

It is probably blasphemy, but why not give the pitcher and catcher a little ear piece like the QB gets in football.

Have the pitches come in from the coach, and allow the pitcher or catcher to shake them off. Combine this with a faster pitch clock, and maybe the game would speed up a bit.

[VTCaraco]

Originally Posted by MattTuck

It is probably blasphemy, but why not give the pitcher and catcher a little ear piece like the QB gets in football.

That's one of the proposed adaptations, but pitchers found the earbud to be distracting. I've read a few recent pieces about exploring a solution for this, but it will be interesting to see how the game changes...

The other related evolution being discussed is electronic ball/strike calls. My son shared a stat with me yesterday that over 34,000 ball/strike calls were erroneous in 2018. By my calculation, that's just under 5% error or about 15 missed ball/strikes per game.