SBT GRVL Runs Afoul of Local Ranchers & Residents in Colorado

[Turkle]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

All 3000 riders drive blue Porsches? That's incredible.

No, but I think the implication is that all blue Porsche-driving gravel cyclists are at the event!

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by Turkle

No, but I think the implication is that all blue Porsche-driving gravel cyclists are at the event!

That would be even more incredible.

[glepore]

Originally Posted by Turkle

However, regarding blocking the roads. In my experience, there is no "good" day to do this, people really do lose their minds over not being able to use a street for 1 day out of the year. It doesn't matter how much community outreach you do, or what mitigation plans you put in place. People will absolutely HOWL if they can't drive their car when/where they want at all times. If it's not harvest season, it's the school year, or it's church day, or whatever. So I'm very much inclined to ignore those complaints.


Drivers, man.

I dunno, come out to rural Va. Its not like you can move your car a block over. If your road is closed for the day, you're not moving. And an event like SBT has folks strung out for hours, so the road is likely literally closed for most of the day.

And for those that argue "economic benefit" the outlying farmers, many miles away from the start, receive NO benefit at all from the event.

I do get that the roads are "public" but this is stretching it a bit.
Would it be ok if the cyclists didn't behave like entitled buffoons? Likely better for sure.

[mstateglfr]

Adding a few more points for consideration that all come from spoon's initial post and seem to have been missed or ignored by some...

- Not being able to use the road you live on for an entire day is definitely an inconvenience. The organizer said 2 way traffic will be eliminated moving forward, which means once riders pass a house, the road can open there for the rest of the day. That changes things since rwgps shows many routes use the same road a couple of times.
Also, many people could go about their mornings without issue if they live on a road that is utilized later in one of the distances.

- Steamboat Springs is 13,000 people. The entire county which this is ridden is is only 25,000 people. The county has 11 people per square mile. 11. Per square mile.

- The ride generated $4.5MM of taxable spending in Steamboat Springs which supports small businesses and local employment. That spending resulted in $378,000 in taxes. $3,780 in taxes went to the county, $10,960 in taxes went to the state, and $363,258 in taxes went to Steamboat Springs, which is the county seat and largest town in the county.

- When people mention the city benefitted and the county didnt, yeah the money tracks with that claim. But at the same time, there is little else in the county besides Steamboat Springs. Thats the only place with an actual grocery store, a Walmart, and there are barely even any other playgrounds in the entire county.
With that said, if the county could financially benefit more, maybe that would help reduce frustration. But how much is actually needed?

- Anyone can call in and report a rider for doing things they dislike.



At 11 people per square mile, how many people is this actually hurting? I hope both sides can meet in the middle and make this work. SBT GRVL sure seems like they are proactively trying to address concerns.

ETA- The claim that this race is unsafe for the citizens and producers of Routt County is...a touch on the dramatic side. Some rancher made that claim. The rancher also called it 'one of the worst example of nonrepresentational government.'
What on Earth?!?! How is this an example of nonrepresentational government? People are elected or hired to run governments. Those people are tasked with making decisions so that not everything has to be a direct vote by all the people. I welcome a scenario where the rancher would feel like he is properly represented. This is a county with only 25,000 people and over half live in one town(city). The county has 11 people per square mile and if you look at land outside of Steamboat Springs, there are fewer than 5 people per square mile. Fewer than 5 per square mile.
Yeah- money is going to go to the place(s) where people exist. Its going to be spent in the place with 1300 people per sq mi and not the pace with 5 people per sq mi. Further, the areas with 5 people per sq mi should not have an overly influential impact on decision making. If they did, then that would actually be non-representational in nature.

[jadmt]

they should make it a dual sporting event....let the gravel racers race but let the ranchers play shoot the bikers with pellet guns or paint ball guns for sport.....win win..be like a big county fair type event....plink the biker...ding ding you win a prize..

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

The county has 11 people per square mile.

At 11 people per square mile, how many people is this actually hurting?

The county has 11 people per square mile ...

You keep repeating this, but it's a fairly meaningless figure because it represents the average density for the entire county. The population density along the SBT GRVL route is certainly a lot higher than this.

[redir]

From the article title they, "want to protect their heritage."

I find that amusing on a lot of levels.

[BRad704]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

People are elected or hired to run governments. Those people are tasked with making decisions so that not everything has to be a direct vote by all the people. I welcome a scenario where the rancher would feel like he is properly represented. This is a county with only 25,000 people and over half live in one town(city). The county has 11 people per square mile and if you look at land outside of Steamboat Springs, there are fewer than 5 people per square mile. Fewer than 5 per square mile.
Yeah- money is going to go to the place(s) where people exist. Its going to be spent in the place with 1300 people per sq mi and not the pace with 5 people per sq mi. Further, the areas with 5 people per sq mi should not have an overly influential impact on decision making. If they did, then that would actually be non-representational in nature.

This part reminds of the concept that "squirrels, cows and open fields aren't voters", or something like that.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by Turkle

What do you think it is, then? Just plain disrespect on the part of cyclists? I actually wonder about this. I've only done a few big organized bike events in my day, but they all featured plenty of rest stops and facilities, but these "gravel" events out in the middle of nowhere might be a totally different story.

I can't comment on this particular event, but over a range of cycling events I've done, some have lots of portapotties, some have a few, and others have none.

But even in events with generally sufficient coverage, sometimes things happen. Think of Tom Dumoulin in the Giro. One time while doing an organized century, I was beset by a similar urge. The organizers were great, and had rest stops with porta potties every 20 mi or so, which seem to more than reasonable to me. But, there I was, about halfway between rest stops, and I knew I wasn't going to make it to the next one. I was lucky, and that I knew the roads and knew I only had to hold it in about 2 miles and I would get to a public park where there was a bathroom. But if I had been on unfamiliar roads, with no other options around, I could have been one of those people.

With 3,000 people in an event, odds are good that somebody's going to have a bad day.

Litter is often similar. I always try to collect all my trash in my pockets while I'm riding, but sometimes I get home from a ride and have fewer wrappers in my pocket than I started the day with. I feel bad about it, but at that point there's nothing I can do. Again, even if everybody is trying just as diligently as I am, you put 3,000 people in an event and there's going to be some litter.

This is where a little bit of effort by the ride organizers to clean up after the riders can go a long way.

As for the question of traffic, no doubt gravel races do a bad job of observing centerline rules, but that's mostly at the front of the race, and the front goes by pretty quickly. Beyond that, things tend to spread out a lot, and it shouldn't be too hard for a vehicles to pass. It may slow them down a little bit, but if I want to drive into San Francisco right now, it's also going to be a lot slower than if the roads were empty, because lots of other people want to use them. That's the nature of public roads. If they want to implement congestion pricing, by all means go ahead, but that means the ranchers have to pay up like everybody else.

[November Dave]

In 2009 I promoted (with the monumental and monumentally critical support of NCVC, one of the country's bigger cycling clubs) a race in Lost River, WV. This is a very rural area about 90 minutes from DC. I was told that Hardy County, at the time, had more people per capita on public assistance than anywhere else in the US. Except for one stretch of state highway that we used, I got the entire 13ish mile route repaved, and spent an ungodly amount of time on outreach to the locals. The area had been growing as a cycling destination, which brought money in. The race solidified that and brought a lot of money in - about 100 people chose to spend the night locally and do a group ride the next day. Just the gas fill ups that race attendees and the 88 volunteers (that number is permanently etched in my head) got locally would have been a significant impact for any given day. Everyone involved put a lot into doing everything possible as correctly as possible. I was astonished by how little clean up we had to do in the parking fields, and the route cleanup trash details picked up some gel wrappers and stuff, but all told the riders were great. We contributed a few thousand to the local volunteer fire and rescue department out of proceeds from the race. A local rotary club type of deal did a barbecue and sold out before the second race wave had started. I still like to think we had a huge positive impact.

One gentleman along the race route was quite opposed to it. He told me so when I visited with him, even when I explained the measures we were taking to minimize inconvenience and the benefits that we were bringing - including the huge potholes outside of his driveway that were getting filled thanks to the race. No one was ever prevented from using their road for more than a minute or three, but because we routed all vehicle traffic in the clockwise direction of the loop, some people might need to drive a slightly longer way to get where they were going.

Overall, despite all of the good that we thought we were delivering, and the good behavior that race people exhibited, the general consensus we got from the locals was that they hated everything about it. Some were very pro, but it wasn't hard to see the against. And I committed one actionable and grave error - we had podium champagne for the winners, and the state park where we hosted the event was dry. I hadn't asked and no one had told me. That was the only evident alcohol at the event, and it was 100% on me, and we lost the venue because of it. The race carried on for a few more years (I actually wanted to make year 2 a gran fondo but was overruled), and racers generally loved it while the locals, except for an extremely enthusiastic minority, by and large hated it.

The point of this long rant is that whatever good you think you might be doing might not be seen as good by the people you think should benefit. Especially if people are pooping in people's yards. That's just ridiculous.

This is also the place where I need to acknowledge Jay Moglia, who was a great partner in bringing the event to life and who unfortunately passed unexpectedly a few years ago. He was an icon in DC cycling.

edit - we had tons of porta potties to supplement the bathrooms on site.

[mstateglfr]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

You keep repeating this, but it's a fairly meaningless figure because it represents the average density for the entire county. The population density along the SBT GRVL route is certainly a lot higher than this.

I do a yearly gravel race about an hour from me. It starts and ends in Newton IA which has 15,000 people. It passes near a couple towns, but only rolls thru one other town and that has 2,000 people.
The race is 55mi within the Jasper Co with a density of 52 people per mile. Newton has 1,390 people per square mile. You spend the first 10 minutes and the last 8 minutes in Newton. Besides that, its straight rural farming country.
Remove Newton and the rest of the county is 30 people per square mile...which even that seems high.
I spend maybe 5mi in the populated part of that county and 50mi in the rural farm part.

Same applies here.
How much of the 140mi route below is densely populated? I am surprised we are even using the term 'densely populated' at all here. I have only been out there once- thru the town into WY, but from what I saw- it quickly goes to rural outside of the immediate town. That was 2018, so maybe its exploded in growth while the population stayed down in the last census?

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by prototoast

I can't comment on this particular event, but over a range of cycling events I've done, some have lots of portapotties, some have a few, and others have none.

SBT GRVL had aid stations about every 24 miles, and the waiting lines for port-a-potties were typical of other organized events I've done.

But even in events with generally sufficient coverage, sometimes things happen. Think of Tom Dumoulin in the Giro. One time while doing an organized century, I was beset by a similar urge. The organizers were great, and had rest stops with porta potties every 20 mi or so, which seem to more than reasonable to me. But, there I was, about halfway between rest stops, and I knew I wasn't going to make it to the next one. I was lucky, and that I knew the roads and knew I only had to hold it in about 2 miles and I would get to a public park where there was a bathroom. But if I had been on unfamiliar roads, with no other options around, I could have been one of those people.

With 3,000 people in an event, odds are good that somebody's going to have a bad day.

Yep, it's going to happen.

Litter is often similar. I always try to collect all my trash in my pockets while I'm riding, but sometimes I get home from a ride and have fewer wrappers in my pocket than I started the day with. I feel bad about it, but at that point there's nothing I can do. Again, even if everybody is trying just as diligently as I am, you put 3,000 people in an event and there's going to be some litter.

Yes, sometimes stuff falls out of your pocket no matter how careful you are.

This is where a little bit of effort by the ride organizers to clean up after the riders can go a long way.

On the SBT GRVL route, it would be a huge undertaking for organizers to clean up after the riders. I think the riders are going to have to take care of this themselves.

As for the question of traffic, no doubt gravel races do a bad job of observing centerline rules, but that's mostly at the front of the race, and the front goes by pretty quickly. Beyond that, things tend to spread out a lot, and it shouldn't be too hard for a vehicles to pass. It may slow them down a little bit, but if I want to drive into San Francisco right now, it's also going to be a lot slower than if the roads were empty, because lots of other people want to use them. That's the nature of public roads. If they want to implement congestion pricing, by all means go ahead, but that means the ranchers have to pay up like everybody else.

Even though riders get spread out, riders were still using most of the road at SBT GRVL. The gravel roads aren't very wide, and farm and ranch equipment are often pretty big, so passing bikes can be a problem.

[72gmc]

Originally Posted by tomato coupe

A lot of people seem to think the pee/poop problems are due to an insufficient number of port-a-potties. I don't think that is the case.

I'm guessing it is both. They need more comfort stations, AND there are a lot of people in various states of familiarity with their race-day nutrition and hydration. That's a lot of bodies saying I don't care how much you paid for these bibs, this is happening now.

[Philster]

Originally Posted by Turkle

No, but I think the implication is that all blue Porsche-driving gravel cyclists are at the event!

I actually disprove that.

[tomato coupe]

Originally Posted by mstateglfr

How much of the 140mi route below is densely populated? I am surprised we are even using the term 'densely populated' at all here.

Has anyone except you used the term?