OT: Cost of Living and new cars/trucks...

[BobbyJones]

Originally Posted by pasadena

Lexus LS 1990-$40k 2021-$110k
Accord 1990-$17k 2021 -$37k

Where are you getting these figures from? Are these averages from somewhere?

I ask because in my post above, i was referring to Accords and Camrys. When I went shopping for new Accords last year I was surprised at how inexpensive they were. Add in the increased longevity gains and the actual value really shines.

I'm in this camp...

Originally Posted by prototoast

There's been a little bit of an increase over the past 10 years, but overall prices have remained essentially flat over the past 25 years...

.....in summary, is that it's not that cars have gotten more expensive, it's that you want to buy a more expensive car.

[bigbill]

I like demos. I drove a 2018 Expedition for a little over two years that had been a demo on the lot. It was nice with decent highway mileage (24ish) but too big for what I needed. I traded it in on a 2020 Ford Focus Titanium, all the whistles and bell, plus 32mpg. I did a three year loan at 2.49%. Out the door, it was $36K but I had a really good trade-in so I only financed $18K.

I looked at F150s while I was shopping. To have all the stuff I want, I'd have to buy an XLT trim with 4WD and the 3.5 engine. That was close to $60K sticker, probably around 70K out the door.

[pasadena]

They are the orig msrp's. You can find prices on any automotive site.
I think they can be good value for sure.

1990 Accord $12,145 - $17,345
2021 Accord $24,970 - $36,900 (top line 21 Accord is actually $37,5)

Except for a few years there, they have always been reliable cars.
Majority of people are not buying new cars, they are leasing them.

But I agree that as you get older, many tend to want a more expensive car.

Originally Posted by BobbyJones

Where are you getting these figures from? Are these averages from somewhere?

I ask because in my post above, i was referring to Accords and Camrys. When I went shopping for new Accords last year I was surprised at how inexpensive they were. Add in the increased longevity gains and the actual value really shines.

I'm in this camp...

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by pasadena

1990 Accord $12,145 - $17,345
2021 Accord $24,970 - $36,900 (top line 21 Accord is actually $37,5)

Those price increases overall inflation. Considering the features that are available right now compared to 30 years ago, you are undoubtedly getting more car for your money today.

Trucks clearly show more nominal price increase, but they have really evolved from utilitarian vehicles to luxury vehicles

[pasadena]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Those price increases overall inflation. Considering the features that are available right now compared to 30 years ago, you are undoubtedly getting more car for your money today.

Trucks clearly show more nominal price increase, but they have really evolved from utilitarian vehicles to luxury vehicles

Yes agree there. There are more features and safety baked in now.
Also, there is model creep to account for: 90 Accord is more like 21 Civic size.
21 Accord is a 90s full size car.
A Honda Fit is probably comparably sized to a 90s Civic.

However, the economics are still such that new cars are not affordable to many, as that's just statistics now...
Somone mentioned the economic gap and disappearing middle class. Maybe just my perception

[jet sanchez]

My neighbour has a red 1991 Honda Civic sitting in his driveway that hasn't moved in 5 years and I have been thinking of offering him a couple grand for it just so I can re-live my youth a bit.

[ltwtsculler91]

Originally Posted by pasadena

Yes agree there. There are more features and safety baked in now.
Also, there is model creep to account for: 90 Accord is more like 21 Civic size.
21 Accord is a 90s full size car.
A Honda Fit is probably comparably sized to a 90s Civic.

However, the economics are still such that new cars are not affordable to many, as that's just statistics now...
Somone mentioned the economic gap and disappearing middle class. Maybe just my perception

This is a huge part of it, and when you look at what the top sellers/desirable cars are, you see people shifted towards higher dollar SUVs and Crossovers so the "standard" sale is now a compact crossover CR-V versus an Accord 25-30 years ago. The CRV being an essentially jacked up Civic for more than or equal to Accord money. Granted the actual size of the average vehicle likely hasn't changed much, your just paying more for it to be taller..

Definitely less people able to afford the average new car, with prices closing in on $40k, but it does explain the explosion of leasing, higher prices on used vehicles, and overall older fleet since like others have said: today's cars are just better. My first Volvo S60 went to 100k with no issues before I sold it for close to $7k since I wanted a wagon and had the new car itch after driving it for close to 6 years.

[C40_guy]

Originally Posted by bigbill

I like demos. I drove a 2018 Expedition for a little over two years that had been a demo on the lot. It was nice with decent highway mileage (24ish) but too big for what I needed. I traded it in on a 2020 Ford Focus Titanium, all the whistles and bell, plus 32mpg. I did a three year loan at 2.49%. Out the door, it was $36K but I had a really good trade-in so I only financed $18K.

I looked at F150s while I was shopping. To have all the stuff I want, I'd have to buy an XLT trim with 4WD and the 3.5 engine. That was close to $60K sticker, probably around 70K out the door.

What makes some of these larger trucks more affordable is the section 179 expense, if you run a business... takes a third or so off the price, essentially.

[BobbyJones]

Originally Posted by C40_guy

What makes some of these larger trucks more affordable is the section 179 expense, if you run a business... takes a third or so off the price, essentially.

I always wonder what % of pickup truck sales are commercial / section 179....and how that raises the price for everyone else.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by BobbyJones

I always wonder what % of pickup truck sales are commercial / section 179....and how that raises the price for everyone else.

It shouldn't raise the price for everyone else - section 179 got revised a few years back so less vehicles qualify for the full deduction.

See the pricing increases vs other vehicles simply being supply/demand issue. People like bigger vehicles nowadays especially since quality has improved so much in the last 10 years with stability, control, handling, comfort, etc, and the automakers are reading the market.

[Tickdoc]

Originally Posted by BobbyJones

I always wonder what % of pickup truck sales are commercial / section 179....and how that raises the price for everyone else.

Wouldn't think it would have much effect.

I have taken advantage of this in the past but I have to admit I don't feel good about it because I don't need that large of a vehicle. Huge savings, don't get me wrong, and there are times a big vehicle is awesome, but empty nesting now I don't want to have to drive a full size truck or suv daily (and I live in large tricked out truck land where trucks outnumber cars two to one). I just rode with a friend in his new big-ass ram truck with all the bells and whistles. Nice truck, but way too nice for my needs. He drives 30K miles a year and hauls a ton of stuff so it is justified for him....not for me.

[Davist]

Back to the Porsches, the issue with electric cars is the batteries don't last forever and are a significant expense, so amortization doesn't quite work out like an ICE car. Not sure what Porsches packs cost but I think the hybrid Prius (so a much smaller battery) NiMh is around $5k? I think a full electric and a performance car (more amp hours), not to mention it's probably Li Ion could be 3x that.. (1st website hit for Tesla 3 is $15k)

[Spaghetti Legs]

Originally Posted by Davist

Back to the Porsches, the issue with electric cars is the batteries don't last forever and are a significant expense, so amortization doesn't quite work out like an ICE car. Not sure what Porsches packs cost but I think the hybrid Prius (so a much smaller battery) NiMh is around $5k? I think a full electric and a performance car (more amp hours), not to mention it's probably Li Ion could be 3x that.. (1st website hit for Tesla 3 is $15k)

I wouldn’t factor in battery replacement into cost of ownership. 8 years on my Tesla battery and lost 10-15% of range, but hardly ever run it close to empty anymore because the chargers are ubiquitous.

Resale value effect? Maybe. I’m gonna run mine another year or so before I get another.

But back to the Porsche, yes. Very cool looking car, but the other makers are making up ground, but still behind Tesla in range, but more importantly, way behind on charging convenience.

[BobbyJones]

Originally Posted by Tickdoc

Wouldn't think it would have much effect...

Better explanation, maybe?:

If manufacturer A is selling a healthy chunk of their pickups to a market that is essentially getting a 30% discount (and NEEDS those pickups as equipment), there's definitely an opportunity to maintain and raise profit margin, setting a new price floor on real cost for the other buyers who WANT the pickups.

They sure as heck aren't giving discounts to those who don't get the write-offs.

It's no secret that the trucks are incredibly profitable. I just wonder if there's more at play in the pricing than economies of scale and simple consumer demand.

That's all. Just a curiosity from the uninformed.

[yinzerniner]

Originally Posted by Davist

Back to the Porsches, the issue with electric cars is the batteries don't last forever and are a significant expense, so amortization doesn't quite work out like an ICE car. Not sure what Porsches packs cost but I think the hybrid Prius (so a much smaller battery) NiMh is around $5k? I think a full electric and a performance car (more amp hours), not to mention it's probably Li Ion could be 3x that.. (1st website hit for Tesla 3 is $15k)

That is true, but electric cars have much fewer running costs than ICE just because of electric motors, and fuel costs are a fraction - 50kwh/100 miles, about $.15/kwh is $7.50 per 100 miles vs 21mpg at $2.75/gallon, which is around $13. So you're saving $650 every 10k miles with present rates, which can vary based on day and location.

Porsche maintenance is not super expensive, but still have to factor ~$1-2k for every 25K miles which is roughly double that of electric vehicles. The battery is warrantied for 8 yrs / 100k miles, and early models of Tesla batteries were said to last a min of 150k miles before significant degradation of 10% or more. The cost savings end up being pretty close to the $15k of a replacement battery, although that's for a Tesla and Porsche hasn't stated what the Taycan one would cost - prob much more.