Question About Position on the Bike

[cah485]

Seeking some advice.

I'm primarily a runner (ran competitively in college and grad school), but have also been riding since college (raced some XC in my early 20s, some crits, and local hill climbs put on by Glenn Swan). 40 years old now.

I've always been buggered by some knee pain in my right knee, both running and on the bike. Some weird motion in my hip or foot resulting in my knee kind of twisting a little bit inward (instead of hinging in only the forward-back plane of motion as it was designed). I always wore a heavier motion control running shoe, or used custom orthotics inside a stability running shoe. Always wore orthotics in a cycling shoe. However, both of those approaches caused some other problems for my achilles and back (go figure, block out the foot from moving and that force gets transmitted to other parts of the body).

Anyway, two years ago or so I saw this article: https://www.trailrunnermag.com/train...-running-form/

And this associated video about "high heel recovery":https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=28LhJnO_zmk

That one trick made me realize I'd been running incorrectly my whole life, swinging my lower leg forward and back below my knee, with my feet landing out in front of me on the heel, instead of driving my knee upwards from the hip with my feet landing closer to my center of mass. Took a while to master that trick. And what I learned was that running that way in a motion control shoe, or with orthotics, was pretty much impossible (because both primarily add weight to the rear of the shoe for rear foot posting which drags the heel down first and encourages that lower leg swing and heavy heel strike). But what I also learned was that if your foot is landing under you, you're not doing this exaggerated heel-to-toe weight bearing phase of the running stance. So you're not transmitting as much force through your feet and the orthotics were no longer necessary.
So I've moved to a neutral running shoe (Altra Escalante) with that form trick and the knee pain has almost disappeared (still shows up on long runs when I get fatigued).

Anyway, to bring this around to cycling. I've tried pulling the orthotic from my cycling shoe (because it does still aggravate my achilles and back occasionally), but my right knee still does that funky motion on the bike (and gets sore as a result). Now that I'm used to my feet being under me in running, I feel like my feet and knees are way out in front cycling. I'm not an expert cyclist by a long shot and over the past 20+ years have always set up my position with a plumb line from my knee dropping down to the peddle spindle. Saddle height was set based on the Lemond Method. My pubic bone height is 85 cm x 0.883 = 75 cm. I've always felt like that rocked my hips too much side to side, so my saddle is actually like 73.5 cm.

Finally my question: is there a way that I could set up my bike differently to get my legs more under me and hopefully get the knee to feel as good as it does running with a similar form change? Any recommendations?

Thanks in advance!

[fa63]

Yes, please go and see an experienced bike fitter with a physiology background Not to be curt, but some (most?) problems are better diagnosed by trained people instead of "experts" on the internet.

Originally Posted by cah485

Finally my question: is there a way that I could set up my bike differently to get my legs more under me and hopefully get the knee to feel as good as it does running with a similar form change? Any recommendations?

[cah485]

Appreciate the recommendation, but in my significant amount of experience with running injuries you see different experts or experienced folks when it comes to injuries and form and each one gives you different advice and most of the time that advice doesn't work. Best case scenario, you get a little tidbit of information, or a little piece of the picture, each time you see someone different. But I've never been to an experienced person or expert that comes even close to getting it right.

And that's not to knock the experts. I generally think everybody (or at least some people, putting myself into this category) are just so uniquely different that the best way to address a form or training physiology problem is to get as much information as possible and treat yourself as an experiment with N=1. I know that was the best case for me when it came to running. Good lord, I saw probably 15 experts over 20 years for running, each one making me different custom orthotics, recommending different form changes or shoes, different drills and strengthening exercises, getting scanogram x-rays, etc. And it was an accumulation of this understanding (over 20 years), plus a random article on the internet that finally got to the root of the problem.

Based on that experience (and what I've seen that is similar between running and cycling in other areas in terms of experts and recommendations, etc.) I am definitely not going to defer to a single expert when it comes to bike fit. Again, N=1. Just looking to collect information and recommendations from the group that I can apply and experiment with.

Thanks!

[cah485]

I also recognize that I may be unique in this approach! But I've always preferred to experiment myself. For example, even the running shoes I use now, I've modified myself to better suit my needs. For a cool video on what this looks like in practice, check this out: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=40qskwa3uZk. At 1:20 they cut the bottom off the shoe and add pieces of a mountain bike tire to increase traction.

As another example, I also found that I was better at making orthotics for myself than any custom orthotic maker I could find (and I'd been to several - including Don Lamson). Ended up buying my own foam box crush kit, making a plaster mold of my feet, buying the raw materials, and custom fabricating. Hence my interest in crowd sourcing information and seeing where I end up. I trust myself much more than the experts!

[coreydoesntknow]

I think you need to see a good PT/non-kooky chiropractor that prescribes exercise as rehab rather than a bike fitter.

It sounds like you are missing some sort of ability for rotation in the lower leg. I'd start with looking at the foot, checking to see if you get sufficient arch collapse as you move through your gait into ankle flexion, then check to see if you're getting internal tibial rotation, and keep moving up the leg to the hip.

Seek guidance from someone who can give you a good assessment.

[cah485]

Appreciate the recommendation! However, mostly looking for bike fit recommendations since none of the PT, chiro, etc. did anything for knee pain either running or on the bike. And over the 20 years of doing all that stuff, I always said I had pain running, on the bike, and on Nordic skis (also used to ski when I lived in upstate NY, still roller ski now). The thing that finally did it for running at least was a form change, which made me think maybe a similar position change on the bike would work (when again, none of the assessment, strength, mobility stuff did jack diddle).

[John H.]

What kind of cleat position do you have?
What crank length are you using?

[benb]

I think you're extremely likely to have trouble finding a fitter that can really help you that much. This is NOT an area fitters are very good at correcting. You could easily go to 5 really really highly regarded bike fitters and they either won't even notice, will ignore your input, or will produce conflicting recommendations. Every issue you experienced with running is the same with cycling, only on average the cycling fitters are even more likely to be self taught or just went to a manufacturer training program. Running is probably more scientific/medically developed, and that's not saying a lot as there's obviously lots of pseudoscience on the running side too.

It may be you want to just use the orthotics in your bike shoes or have them made for cycling. A lot of riders who have no issues off the bike are using orthotics on the bike. Cycling is an odd motion and your feet & legs aren't really designed for it. IME none of the negatives of orthotics in running matter at all in cycling as you're not absorbing shocks in your feet and don't need your arch to move. The main negative of orthotics in cycling IMO is the increase in stack height and changes in the rest of your bike fit they can cause.

I have almost *exactly* the same issues and experiences you do with my running, with my right leg having more of these issues than my left. The same technique things you mention work for me, and reducing the heel -> toe offset in the running shoes is important for me. I should try the Altra model you mentioned, I like their shoes but a lot of the trail focused ones are very light on the padding. For me it's either figure out how to do stuff with no orthotics or wear the orthotics but accept that I can't run. The whole thing with the shoes + orthotics forcing the heel strike is kind of impossible to deal with for me. They cause as many issues as they solve. However on the bike and for things like weightlifting, doing squats, etc.. they are a net benefit.

If you have this issue more on one side than the other on the bike and/or running. I would look really carefully at your cleat position and saddle fore-aft and make sure there is not something going on like your feet are different sized. For me my feet are differently sized and that's part of the issue. My right foot is longer than my left and my right leg is extremely subtly longer somewhere (fitters can't see that part) and it causes me to walk different on each side and I compensate in my calves... on the bike that compensation doesn't work.

Like I said though.. dealing with assymetric issues and/or foot difference issues is REALLY challenging for fitters IME. Good luck. I have been dealing with this for 20 years and have never found a fitter who just could really solve it quickly.

Different PTs & Doctors and Chiropracters will argue forever about whether or not internal tibial rotation is due to your hips or your feet and whether or not it can be corrected with exercises alone or requires an orthotic. The science isn't super solid at all, and the whole thing is so complicated it's not going to get figured out very quickly.

[Permanent socks]

Bike fit is dynamic and constantly evolving based on stiffness, injury, physiology, etc....

Sounds like you have experience tinkering with your body position across multiple disciplines. Why not just keep tinkering and see what the effects are?

Use some flat pedals and see if that eliminates the knee pain. Then you can more easily move your foot around to find the sweet spot for you right now.

Most bike fitters are garbage and claim that they have all the answers.... they don't and won't.

[Alistair]

Check YouTube for fit videos from Neil Stanbury from AUS (often posted on the Road Cycling Academy channel). He seems to be one of the more knowledgable and consistent guys with lots of content.

Here's his website, the Media tab has some stuff embedded...
https://neillsbikefit.com.au

Anyway, take look, see if any ideas stand out. If not, or if they do but don't work out, next step is finding a good local fitter. Preferably one with a background in PT or similar (vs somebody who has just done a basic bike fit course from Specialized or whoever else).

I would guess your knee tracking is some combination of foot instability and saddle position. But knowing which way to move either isn't something I would guess at.

You could try an adjustable insole, like from G8, and moving your cleat back a bit. Both should be safe (as in, not going to make the knee worse). If you do move the cleat back, you may need to lower the saddle a bit to account for the shorter length from ankle to cleat. With the G8, you might try the heel wedge as well, if you tend to pronate badly.

But, like mentioned a few posts up, a lot of this is voodoo. Like maybe 50% science/50% voodoo. And on the science side, maybe 20% of fitters actually studied it in-depth (vs a basic manufacturers fitting course). Anybody who relies 100% on dots and motion tracking probably isn't going to get you where you want to go. You want somebody who does a full body analysis before even putting you on the bike - leg length differences, flexibility, muscle imbalances, balance, etc. And somebody who works with riders of your type/caliber (a semi-pro/pro needs a different fit than a Masters racer which differs from a random amateur who doesn't race at all).

[cah485]

Originally Posted by John H.

What kind of cleat position do you have?
What crank length are you using?

It's a forefoot cleat position - have considered moving it further back to midfoot. Crank length 175. Thanks for any insights that you can share!

[cah485]

Originally Posted by Alistair

Check YouTube for fit videos from Neil Stanbury from AUS (often posted on the Road Cycling Academy channel). He seems to be one of the more knowledgable and consistent guys with lots of content.

Here's his website, the Media tab has some stuff embedded...
https://neillsbikefit.com.au.

Thanks for the recommendation!

[Alistair]

Originally Posted by cah485

It's a forefoot cleat position - have considered moving it further back to midfoot. Crank length 175. Thanks for any insights that you can share!

Easy button is moving the cleat back (and saddle down to compensate). Easy enough to revert if it doesn't help.

Do you have any 170 cranks lying around to try (or a friend who might have a set you can borrow)? Easy enough to swap (just pricey to experiment without a parts-bin to pillage).

[cah485]

Originally Posted by benb

It may be you want to just use the orthotics in your bike shoes or have them made for cycling. A lot of riders who have no issues off the bike are using orthotics on the bike. Cycling is an odd motion and your feet & legs aren't really designed for it. IME none of the negatives of orthotics in running matter at all in cycling as you're not absorbing shocks in your feet and don't need your arch to move.

This is where I'm leaning, but I thought it was worth experimenting before resigning myself to this outcome. Not that it's horrible. And you're correct, I definitely don't notice the orthotics as much cycling. It's just been soooo nice losing them for the running that it would be great to do the same for cycling.

Originally Posted by benb

My right foot is longer than my left and my right leg is extremely subtly longer somewhere (fitters can't see that part) and it causes me to walk different on each side and I compensate in my calves... on the bike that compensation doesn't work.

I mentioned in an earlier post a scanogram x-ray. A PT had suspected a leg length discrepancy and recommended the scan. Right leg is a good bit longer than the left. A deformity in the left foot (kind of a club foot) makes it 7 mm short, plus 2 mm in the tibia, plus an additional 6 mm in the femur (adds up to 15 mm total, so my hips are pretty off kilter and my back has a good crink in it). After that diagnosis I had experimented with a lift for running in the left (shorter leg). It actually made my right knee pain worse, and caused some back problems as well. Didn't really experiment with a lift on the bike based on that outcome, but did purchase Andy Pruit's book back then (two or three years ago) which has a section on shimming for leg length. I think the short leg makes my right leg move in a funny way to compensate. Orthotics (to provide more support for the right foot to keep the knee from rotating in - right orthotic has a defined elevated arch, left orthotic is almost flat with no arch because of the weird foot) helped with that to an extent running (and help on the bike too) but the soreness was still always there. Changing running form to keep my legs under me (and my feet from being out in front striking on the heel) really made the difference.

Thanks for all the insight, much appreciated!

[cah485]

Originally Posted by Alistair

Easy button is moving the cleat back (and saddle down to compensate). Easy enough to revert if it doesn't help.

Do you have any 170 cranks lying around to try (or a friend who might have a set you can borrow)? Easy enough to swap (just pricey to experiment without a parts-bin to pillage).

Thanks for the suggestion, I'll try shifting the cleat. Hmm...I have a 165 mm crank laying around, I could swap that. Any reason why crank length might help? Or just something pretty easy to try? Thanks!