Clearance of Campy 11s vs 12s calipers

[cgolvin]

It's my impression that all of the 12s Campy calipers have greater clearance than their 11s predecessors. On my Duende, I'm able to run true-to-size 28s mounted on HED Belgium+ with C12 calipers, but I'm looking to upgrade from Chorus and wondering whether the same tire & wheel setup will clear SR11 dual pivot calipers.

Anyone have firsthand experience to offer? Thanks

[herb5998]

If the R11 brakes include the dual pivot rear, the clearance may be tighter in the rear, I found the single pivot rear in Campagnolo 11 speed to have a bit better clearance.

On my Kirk, the SR12 brakes provide a ton of clearance, but a lot of that is the location of the bridge/fork mount.

[JasonF]

Originally Posted by cgolvin

It's my impression that all of the 12s Campy calipers have greater clearance than their 11s predecessors. On my Duende, I'm able to run true-to-size 28s mounted on HED Belgium+ with C12 calipers, but I'm looking to upgrade from Chorus and wondering whether the same tire & wheel setup will clear SR11 dual pivot calipers.

Anyone have firsthand experience to offer? Thanks

My SR11 skeleton brakes will clear a Vittoria Corsa 28mm on a HED Ardennes RA rim (21mm internal width) with zero problems. Single pivot rear, dual pivot front - both fine. Inflated to 60psi the tire comes in a smidge over 29mm in width. The calipers could probably handle a tire a bit wider but my frame's rear bridge location is the limiting factor.

[Bob Ross]

Originally Posted by herb5998

a lot of that is the location of the bridge/fork mount.

^^^This

[KarlC]

Campy 12spd calipers definitely have way more room when adjusted right.

There are a few threads that show this, I did one along time ago, with photo comparison of both.

Here are some of them ......

Originally Posted by KarlC

With the Veloflex Vlaanderen 27 tubular tires
my rear brake clearance was tight so I tried Record 12 and here is what I found.

All of the below photos are on my Seven 622 SLX, all with the same brake shoes and pads. All are held fully closed against the same Zipp 303 FC wheel with a Veloflex Vlaanderen 27 tubular tire at 80 PSI.

1st photo is Record 11, (I could not fit a 2mm allen in, so maybe there is 1.5mm space)
2nd photo is Record 12 with the adjustment screw fully in (this is touching the tire)
3nd photo is Record 12 with the adjustment screw fully out (I did fit a 4mm allen in)

Another one for you and there are others if you search ......

Originally Posted by huck*this

Hey buddy. Just an FYI I fit 28mm Corsa G+ tubs with 26.2 FSE wheels to my serotta using the Record 12 brakes with no issues and plenty of room. I noticed you have the adjuster bottomed out. You need to loosen that bad boy up so the arm arches some more. That will give you the brake clearance you need and what I had to do going from 25mm tires. Shoot me a PM if you need further help but pretty easy stuff once you play with that adjustment.

You are right I checked again and the below photos are more accurate, but the Pina MOST brakes still have the most room on my F8.

Also I am now going Etap so the campy R12 are going on my Seven 622 SLX see here for how they fit .... https://forums.thepaceline.net/showt...17#post2554717

1st photo is Record 11
2nd photo is Record 12 with the adjustment screw fully out
3nd photo is Pina MOST with the adjustment screw fully out





.

[Applesauce]

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

^^^This

Echoed again… Has way more to do with the frame/fork than the brake caliper. This seems compounded by the fact that most brakes have adjustments many people don’t even know about.

[KarlC]

Originally Posted by herb5998

a lot of that is the location of the bridge/fork mount.

Originally Posted by Bob Ross

^^^This

Originally Posted by Applesauce

Echoed again… Has way more to do with the frame/fork than the brake caliper. This seems compounded by the fact that most brakes have adjustments many people don’t even know about.

Yes of course this is true, but if you tested both the Campy 11 and Campy 12 brakes on the same frame, the Campy 12 will always give you more room if adjusted right.

.

[d_douglas]

Which raises the question: why don’t builders/manufacturers just build the bridge 5mm higher and then riders could make full use of the slots for the brakepads - I am sure that using 23mm tires doesn’t get you at the top of the slot with no more room to adjust, right? Move it down and where you were once in the middle of the slot, you are now 5mm higher. People with 32mm tires would likely be able to use regular-reach calipers from the big 3 manufacturers - all of whom make amazing brakes.

[Zackus]

Originally Posted by d_douglas

Which raises the question: why don’t builders/manufacturers just build the bridge 5mm higher and then riders could make full use of the slots for the brakepads - I am sure that using 23mm tires doesn’t get you at the top of the slot with no more room to adjust, right? Move it down and where you were once in the middle of the slot, you are now 5mm higher. People with 32mm tires would likely be able to use regular-reach calipers from the big 3 manufacturers - all of whom make amazing brakes.

On my Kirk JKS, I can mount 33mm ultradyanmicos on HED 21mm internal rims under 11spd Potenza short pull brakes. I've only mocked it up to see if it would fit but seemed like I was good. I did the same thing with gk slicks 32mm and no issues. This of course is surely the result of Dave give thought to the design and doing what you suggest above.

I think we'll probably see it happen more, but I think part of it why its rare is currently changing opinions about what represents a wide tire vs. decreased production of rim brake frames from large producers. I think just a couple years ago, going into COVID 28mm were still thought of as a wide road tire whereas any endurance bike today typically is sold with 30mm and and go to 35mm+ which were "gravel" or "CX" widths. additionally it probably doesn't make sense for large manufacturers to re-design their rim brake bikes around maxing out tire width, when rim-brake to begin with is already a limited market share for new customers. I think it just comes down to that almost all of the rim-brake frames that are floating around out there, were made during a time when 25mm was the standard for road and 28 was pretty wide, and 30 wasn't a thought.

I think the pendulum may swing back a bit or maybe just among certain bike manufacturers

from the main producers, I think rim is only available in the bottom entry level bikes :
Giant:https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/contend-3 - says can fit 32mm
Cannondale: no rim brake road bike I could find
spec: https://www.specialized.com/us/en/al...=322263-199474 no mention tire clearance that I could find

smaller example I know off the top of my head:
Ritchey road logic is sold with 30mm but anecdotally have heard 32mm fit fine. I don't think it is really made in large production qtys though anymore. but still being made none the less
https://ritcheylogic.com/bike/frames...logic-frameset

[oldpotatoe]

Originally Posted by d_douglas

Which raises the question: why don’t builders/manufacturers just build the bridge 5mm higher and then riders could make full use of the slots for the brakepads - I am sure that using 23mm tires doesn’t get you at the top of the slot with no more room to adjust, right? Move it down and where you were once in the middle of the slot, you are now 5mm higher. People with 32mm tires would likely be able to use regular-reach calipers from the big 3 manufacturers - all of whom make amazing brakes.

Why indeed...Two interviews, One with Ugo DeRosa and one with Ernesto Colnago. Their frame geometry BITD were almost polar opposites. DeRosa, slack and long, Colnago steeper seat tube, shorter top tube..BOTH insisted their geometries were the very 'best'...

So.....

[ridethecliche]

Originally Posted by Zackus

On my Kirk JKS, I can mount 33mm ultradyanmicos on HED 21mm internal rims under 11spd Potenza short pull brakes. I've only mocked it up to see if it would fit but seemed like I was good. I did the same thing with gk slicks 32mm and no issues. This of course is surely the result of Dave give thought to the design and doing what you suggest above.

I think we'll probably see it happen more, but I think part of it why its rare is currently changing opinions about what represents a wide tire vs. decreased production of rim brake frames from large producers. I think just a couple years ago, going into COVID 28mm were still thought of as a wide road tire whereas any endurance bike today typically is sold with 30mm and and go to 35mm+ which were "gravel" or "CX" widths. additionally it probably doesn't make sense for large manufacturers to re-design their rim brake bikes around maxing out tire width, when rim-brake to begin with is already a limited market share for new customers. I think it just comes down to that almost all of the rim-brake frames that are floating around out there, were made during a time when 25mm was the standard for road and 28 was pretty wide, and 30 wasn't a thought.

I think the pendulum may swing back a bit or maybe just among certain bike manufacturers

from the main producers, I think rim is only available in the bottom entry level bikes :
Giant:https://www.giant-bicycles.com/us/contend-3 - says can fit 32mm
Cannondale: no rim brake road bike I could find
spec: https://www.specialized.com/us/en/al...=322263-199474 no mention tire clearance that I could find

smaller example I know off the top of my head:
Ritchey road logic is sold with 30mm but anecdotally have heard 32mm fit fine. I don't think it is really made in large production qtys though anymore. but still being made none the less
https://ritcheylogic.com/bike/frames...logic-frameset

I do hope this happens.

I love my giant groad bike with hydraulic disc brakes, but I definitely miss the ease of working on a rim brake roadie. I don't ride my rim brake road bike outside anymore if I can avoid it because I don't think it can take anything wider than 25's... I'd love to ride outside on 28's, but more realistically 32s. I don't ride in the rain a ton and can take my groad bike out if I need to... but I'd love to have a road bike that I could just put 32's on and ride outside.

I need to see what I can fit in my roadie, but TLDR I'm all for rim brake bikes which can clear 32's without too much doing. I think it's a great next step for mass market bikes. I think folks will still buy them since that's about as wide as most road bikes need to go...

[2000m2]

The SR11 calipers on my Responsorium clear 28s with no issues, but I have no experience with Campy 12 speed.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by d_douglas

Which raises the question: why don’t builders/manufacturers just build the bridge 5mm higher and then riders could make full use of the slots for the brakepads - I am sure that using 23mm tires doesn’t get you at the top of the slot with no more room to adjust, right? Move it down and where you were once in the middle of the slot, you are now 5mm higher. People with 32mm tires would likely be able to use regular-reach calipers from the big 3 manufacturers - all of whom make amazing brakes.

The answer about why bike manufacturers aren't making rim brake bikes with more tire (anymore) depends on your perspective. It could either be: Because bike buyers haven't wanted them; or because bike buyers have let them get away with it.

In the last half of the 20th century, people became convinced that narrow high pressure tires were faster. Those who were interested in going fast would use tubular tires, because they could be run at higher pressures, and were often narrower than clinchers; those who were more interested in practicality/economy/comfort used clincher tires, which were typically wider and run at lower pressures. Bikes made for both types of tires used caliper rim brakes, which could easily handle tires up to 35mm or so.

Then around 1980, things started to change. Clincher rims developed hooks, which allowed narrower, higher pressure clincher tires to be used. Also around that time, the MTB was being introduced, and soon after the Hybrid Bike, so those who wanted wider tires could ride these bikes instead of road bikes. Around 1990, bike racing became more popular (both road racing and triathlon), and people started thinking they needed racing bikes for general riding. Road bike geometries started becoming tighter, with less tire clearance. By around the year 2000, HWNWNBM (He Whose Name Will Not Be Mentioned) became a media darling, and now everybody had to ride a bike like his. That meant road racing bike geometries, components, wheels (and tires) for the masses.

With the move to narrower tires and tighter geometries, short reach brakes (which had previously been a niche product for racing bikes) became the norm. Road bike designers no longer had to worry about providing clearance for wider tires because there was little demand for it. Wider tires were relegated to MTBs and hybrids, which used other types of brakes - first cantilevers, then for linear pull brakes, and then disc brakes.

Starting in the 2010s a number of other factors came into play leading to people choosing to ride wider, lower pressure bikes. These factors include the downfall of HWMNB (reducing people's desire to ride bikes like his), the rise in the All Road Bike movement (possibly a backlash against the harsh ride of high pressure narrow tires), and the growth of gravel riding. Also during this time period, consumers became convinced (with the help of the bike companies) that disc brakes were necessary for road riding. And even for road racing, science had shown that wider, lower pressure tires were usually faster, so the pros started riding wider tires. So why didn't rim brake bikes start getting more tire clearance? Because the industry and the bike buying public colluded in form a collective amnesia about the rim brake bikes being ridden just a few decades before, and convinced themselves that tires wider than 28mm could only be used with disc brakes. And so with little demand for rim brake bikes with clearance for wider tires, the mass manufacturers simply didn't make them.

[cgolvin]

Originally Posted by 2000m2

The SR11 calipers on my Responsorium clear 28s with no issues, but I have no experience with Campy 12 speed.

Thank you, this is what I was looking for. Is the rear caliper single or dual pivot?

[2000m2]

Originally Posted by cgolvin

Thank you, this is what I was looking for. Is the rear caliper single or dual pivot?

The side of the caliper says “Dual Brakes”, but it looks like a single pivot to me on the rear with dual in front. Here’s a pic (w/ 25mm tire):