Rivendell saved for now...

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by MikeD

I don't think the quality of BMC's Chinese steel frames are near the quality offered by Rivendell.

if you are comparing Riv's custom stuff, I'm sure I'd agree (I think Black Mtn is really close to the Waterford offerings if you ask me)... if you are talking about something like the Roadini, I just don't see it... I guess if you have to have lugs, but other than that... as I said above, I had a Bleriot and while it was a beautiful bike, the quality of the frame or ride wasn't any better than than either of my Black Mtn bikes... the lugs were pretty to look at, but that was about it IMHO. Especially when you compare it to something like the Hilson with a $1,500 price tag, I just don't see the almost 3x price increase...

BTW- to say Black Mtn has "Chinese steel" is a bit disingenuous... while Taiwan is certainly Chinese, Mike uses the leading steel tubing supplier there. What you imply above seems to compare Black Mtn bikes to something from WalMart... Where does Grant have his non-custom models like the Roadini built, I can't find it on the site... ** I found in the catalog where the frames are "from our small volume Taiwan builders"... sounds like the same as Black Mtn to me.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by MikeD

I also think there's a shrinking customer base. I don't think young people are getting into cycling. Century rides that used to fill up in the Bay Area are not that well attended anymore, for example.

There could be something to that, but Mike doesn't seem to have any issues selling out his stock of frames almost every time... I do agree US road cycling seems to be in a bit of a doldrum right now... but it had to drop a bit after Lance fell off and the energy left... I assume it will go back to being more of a fringe sport again at some point.

[MikeD]

Originally Posted by fourflys

if you are comparing Riv's custom stuff, I'm sure I'd agree (I think Black Mtn is really close to the Waterford offerings if you ask me)... if you are talking about something like the Roadini, I just don't see it... I guess if you have to have lugs, but other than that... as I said above, I had a Bleriot and while it was a beautiful bike, the quality of the frame or ride wasn't any better than than either of my Black Mtn bikes... the lugs were pretty to look at, but that was about it IMHO. Especially when you compare it to something like the Hilson with a $1,500 price tag, I just don't see the almost 3x price increase...

BTW- to say Black Mtn has "Chinese steel" is a bit disingenuous... while Taiwan is certainly Chinese, Mike uses the leading steel tubing supplier there. What you imply above seems to compare Black Mtn bikes to something from WalMart... Where does Grant have his lower priced models like the Roadini built, I can't find it on the site...

If you can point me to where on the BMC site tubing quality and where the bikes are made are discussed? I thought mainland China. Taiwan is certainly better but no-name brand tubing doesn't inspire confidence. BMC, Surly, Soma, they're about the same. Decent but cheap frames. I don't know about the Roadini but have always thought that Rivendell is known for high quality steel framed bikes fabbed in the US, not really competing in the same segment of the market as BMC, etc.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by MikeD

If you can point me to where on the BMC site tubing quality and where the bikes are made are discussed? I thought mainland China. Taiwan is certainly better but no-name brand tubing doesn't inspire confidence. BMC, Surly, Soma, they're about the same. Decent but cheap frames. I don't know about the Roadini but have always thought that Rivendell is known for high quality steel framed bikes fabbed in the US, not really competing in the same segment of the market as BMC, etc.

from the latest Riv catalog:
"We’re picky about who builds our frames. Of the
frame suppliers we’ve used over the years, few
have equaled and none have exceeded the quality,
precision, and consistency of the Rivendell frames
from our small-volume Taiwan builders. They build
to spec, and frames and forks get tested to rigorous,
objective standards by computer-controlled hydraulic
robots. What we learn from the tests, we apply to
the production frames. If you shop with an American
job-preserving conscience, consider that nobody
in America can deliver the combination of detail,
quality, consistency, and volume we require to stay
in business. Our Taiwan-built frames directly support
nine of 13 jobs here at Rivendell in Walnut Creek. "
https://cdn.shopify.com/s/files/1/14...27747902060761

From the Road frame page on Black Mtn:
"The steel used in the road frame is a heat-treated, double butted, 4130 chrome-moly tubing made by the leading steel tubing supplier in Taiwan. It’s tubing I specified for the ride quality I want and it rides great. "
https://blackmtncycles.com/frames/road-frames/

somewhere on one of the early blogs on the Black Mtn site, Mike discusses who makes it frames and forks... in regard to "no-name tubing", who does Riv use? Really not trying to be argumentative here, just saying... also, in the Riv catalog above, it seems to indicate only the custom Rivs are now made in the US. All others it seems are made over in Taiwan, I guess Waterford got too expensive for them.

** here is one post where Mike speaks a bit more on the tubesets he specs... https://blackmtncycles.com/black-mou...rame-update-3/

[Joe Remi]

For the prices Black Mountain are asking, I'm fairly certain those "Taiwan tubes" are welded up in China. If that's your thing, go crazy, they seem like nice bikes, but Rivs aren't built in China.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

For the prices Black Mountain are asking, I'm fairly certain those "Taiwan tubes" are welded up in China. If that's your thing, go crazy, they seem like nice bikes, but Rivs aren't built in China.

wow, some of you folks seem deadset to discuss things you only assume and bring down something based on a halo-effect... again, I have no real issues with Riv bikes if lugs are your thing, but the Black Mtn bikes and the non-custom Rivs seem to be made in the same place (who knows, could be the same shop that welds them up...)

I would be curious to know what type of tubeset Riv uses (butting, heat treated, etc?) as my Bleriot I had seemed to not ride as nice as either of my Black Mtn bikes... I imagine the previous, higher-end Rivs built by Waterford rode pretty nice, but I've only owned a Taiwan-built Riv previously. But, I don't think Grant shares that type of knowledge.

https://blackmtncycles.com/differences/

[palincss]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

For the prices Black Mountain are asking, I'm fairly certain those "Taiwan tubes" are welded up in China. If that's your thing, go crazy, they seem like nice bikes, but Rivs aren't built in China.

If you look at the Black Mountain web site, you'll see they say in several places the frames are Taiwan-made. Taiwan != China.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by palincss

If you look at the Black Mountain web site, you'll see they say in several places the frames are Taiwan-made. Taiwan != China.

My mistake then, I find the Black Mtn site quite difficult to navigate so I didn't find a specific build location. I don't know why their road frame is cheaper than a Roadini, although using powdercoat instead of paint may help.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by fourflys

wow, some of you folks seem deadset to discuss things you only assume and bring down something based on a halo-effect... again, I have no real issues with Riv bikes if lugs are your thing, but the Black Mtn bikes and the non-custom Rivs seem to be made in the same place (who knows, could be the same shop that welds them up...)

I would be curious to know what type of tubeset Riv uses (butting, heat treated, etc?) as my Bleriot I had seemed to not ride as nice as either of my Black Mtn bikes... I imagine the previous, higher-end Rivs built by Waterford rode pretty nice, but I've only owned a Taiwan-built Riv previously. But, I don't think Grant shares that type of knowledge.

https://blackmtncycles.com/differences/

Some of us folks think it's weird that a thread was resurrected over a $20 promotion with people throwing up their hands and unsubscribing. Now we have to go down the road of "Black Mtn better/cheaper", which probably isn't much fun for two company owners who live within riding distance of each other. Yeah let's do that.

[fourflys]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

Some of us folks think it's weird that a thread was resurrected over a $20 promotion with people throwing up their hands and unsubscribing. Now we have to go down the road of "Black Mtn better/cheaper", which probably isn't much fun for two company owners who live within riding distance of each other. Yeah let's do that.

having been to both shops and bought bikes from both, I get it... but the discussion turned to why Riv was having to ask for folks to underwrite them again after the last time (which I supported and never never used my credit BTW). The facts are the facts, it appears there is a comparable bike, minus lugs, for a better price and maybe some newer technology. If two folks who have been in the industry a long time can't take a bit of back and forth, I think there are larger issues... BTW- I'm sure they can... in the end, folks will spend their dollars where they want and I sincerely hope Rivendell is one of those options.

there is nothing wrong with healthy discussion in a free market society. We are all consumers.

[Joe Remi]

I don't think this is a healthy discussion. It (re)started with people blowing steam over a $20 promotion and saying it caused them to unsubscribe from the emails. There's nothing "healthy" about that, it's just howling at the moon on the internet.

[MaraudingWalrus]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

I don't think this is a healthy discussion....It's just howling at the moon on the internet.

welcome to the Internet!

[Ed-B]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

I don't think this is a healthy discussion. It (re)started with people blowing steam over a $20 promotion and saying it caused them to unsubscribe from the emails. There's nothing "healthy" about that, it's just howling at the moon on the internet.

What you need to realize is that for many of us these pleas for help are not new from Grant at Rivendell Bicycle Works, and we're all feeling like it's time for a new business plan.

And personally, I think it is a healthy discussion, because if some of the ideas raised in this thread were to be implemented, then RBW might be a more profitable and sustainable business in what is clearly a shrinking and highly competitive market.

[arazate]

The company I work for has significant experience in sourcing tubes in steel, stainless steel, Ti etc. both seamless and welded from China. Mills exist in China that rival the quality of European or American mills, at half the cost.

[Burnette]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

I don't think this is a healthy discussion. It (re)started with people blowing steam over a $20 promotion and saying it caused them to unsubscribe from the emails. There's nothing "healthy" about that, it's just howling at the moon on the internet.

Hey now, that's not a fair narrative of what this is about. It's not just another run if the mill gift certificate promo here.

And we come to forums to talk bikes and Rivendell is quite the story.

If you read through, even some detractors wish Rivendell well but Rivendell in the end a business and in the public domain people have every right to question their ways and even stop correspondence with them.

There's nothing healthy in suppressing what is definitely true either, no matter how hard it may be for some to read.

Rivendell lost a lot of faith when they asked for money the first time, people have every right to question it when they do it again.

If one were really wanting to help Rivendell you wouldn't go to a forum and ask why people are questioning them, you would tell Rivendell that obviously that their asking for money is having a big negative effect and you would give them advice on other avenues to pursue.

Again, if you read the thread more than one person had done just that.

You can't downplay it, Rivendell is in a mess and it's perfectly fine if we discuss. Even better when we can be humorous about it. I'm pro mechanical pencil by the way.