105 Di2 is here

[robertbb]

Originally Posted by hoj

Man, the prices for these new groupsets are absolutely insane.

Anyone remember ~5 years ago when you could buy a complete 105 5800 mechanical groupset from Merlin Cycles for $385 shipped?

Or an Ultegra 6800 mechanical groupset for around $680 shipped?

Those were the good ole' days...

Or a 2015+ Chorus 11 groupset for $850

I went bat**** berserk stocking up on campy 11.

[charliedid]

This is the Modern World...

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by rice rocket

Hyperbole aside, 3kg is in-line with the rest of the Shimano product line, it's less than 300g over the Ultegra, which no one complained about, and 225g lighter than Rival AXS.

And also doesn't have a 2x4 shaped hood like rival AXS does.

[foggypeake]

Originally Posted by charliedid

This is the Modern World...

As The Jam stated in 1977....

(Great band BTW)

[benb]

Count me in on being negative about this. I think Shimano has lost the plot.

I get it there are going to be people who want bling at the DA/Ultegra level and/or have difficulty with dealing with adjusting or servicing cables.

But to not have a rim brake + mechanical affordable light group at this level boggles me. I've bought a bunch of bikes that came with 105 over the years, none of those complete bikes cost as much as this group.

Most of those bikes were below 20lb, seems like these bikes with electronic + disc are now going to weigh as much as Tiagra bikes used to, but cost as much as Carbon + Ultegra rim brake bikes did 5 years ago.

A lot of these 105 bikes were/are were my rain and winter rides, etc.. and again.. really hard to stomach a group this expensive that is so likely to have to be totally replaced due to compatibility issues if one major part brakes.

It seems likely I will try Campy for the first time if Campy keeps supporting mechanical + rim brake at a wide range of levels. Particularly for the light road bike I really don't see the benefit of Disc + Electronic for $2k+ extra expense and a big increase in weight. That kind of bike already doesn't go out in the really bad weather where the discs are obviously better, and where I live now I'm in true mountains so rarely it doesn't matter, and I have a long history of being fine on big mountain descents with the rim brakes.

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by foggypeake

As The Jam stated in 1977....

(Great band BTW)

Bingo 😎

[charliedid]

Originally Posted by benb

Count me in on being negative about this. I think Shimano has lost the plot.

I get it there are going to be people who want bling at the DA/Ultegra level and/or have difficulty with dealing with adjusting or servicing cables.

But to not have a rim brake + mechanical affordable light group at this level boggles me. I've bought a bunch of bikes that came with 105 over the years, none of those complete bikes cost as much as this group.

Most of those bikes were below 20lb, seems like these bikes with electronic + disc are now going to weigh as much as Tiagra bikes used to, but cost as much as Carbon + Ultegra rim brake bikes did 5 years ago.

A lot of these 105 bikes were/are were my rain and winter rides, etc.. and again.. really hard to stomach a group this expensive that is so likely to have to be totally replaced due to compatibility issues if one major part brakes.

It seems likely I will try Campy for the first time if Campy keeps supporting mechanical + rim brake at a wide range of levels. Particularly for the light road bike I really don't see the benefit of Disc + Electronic for $2k+ extra expense and a big increase in weight. That kind of bike already doesn't go out in the really bad weather where the discs are obviously better, and where I live now I'm in true mountains so rarely it doesn't matter, and I have a long history of being fine on big mountain descents with the rim brakes.

I'm not sure but I am in the camp that 11 speed mech will be at least current 105 quality as Tiagra or some other. It's wishful thinking that a market for 12 speed mechanical rim brake OEM exists outside bike forums.

[benb]

Originally Posted by charliedid

I'm not sure but I am in the camp that 11 speed mech will be at least current 105 quality as Tiagra or some other. It's wishful thinking that a market for 12 speed mechanical rim brake OEM exists outside bike forums.

It's too bad this has happened. I'd argue the hydro discs will be much lower maintenance than rim brakes if done right, and that's a big bonus to average riders.. but otherwise they are pretty unnecessary, and the big selling point of discs on road is mostly just cause they marketed the heck out of carbon wheels to a lot of people who probably don't need carbon wheels.

And I don't necessarily agree with a statement that Shimano has already gotten all this stuff right. Every time I have done a test ride it's all way too "meh" to justify spending thousands of extra dollars and carrying extra weight around. If the performance was jaw droppingly improved that would be one thing but it has never seemed to be.

I mean it's gotten odd or spending habits have changed if everyone is totally cool with "my first road bike" being $4000-5000.

[batman1425]

Originally Posted by benb

I mean it's gotten odd or spending habits have changed if everyone is totally cool with "my first road bike" being $4000-5000.

This. The bike boom and inflation has allowed manuf. to roll out big price increase (even mid-model year for the same exact bike that was cheaper last month) to make this "normal" now. They realized people will pay it, so I don't blame them. For us long timers, it comes as quite the shock...

One example that stood out to me - A 2021 Scott addict 20 disc (entry level carbon 105 bike) was $2500 last year. IIRC were $2k when they first rolled out and went up $500 mid cycle after a color change. The 2022 version of that bike, is $3200. Same build kit - 105 mech disc. It does have a new frame with an integrated cockpit borrowed from the RC vs. the '21, but otherwise appears the same. $1200 increase. Add electronic onto that, yep, 4-5 grand for "entry level" now. Even Alloy bikes aren't "cheap" anymore.

[charliedid]

Shipping costs and supply issues are still real and demand will wane a bit in 2023 so get it while you can if you are selling bikes. Spending is already going down.

Cycling and cycles.

[madsciencenow]

Originally Posted by benb

Count me in on being negative about this. I think Shimano has lost the plot.

I get it there are going to be people who want bling at the DA/Ultegra level and/or have difficulty with dealing with adjusting or servicing cables.

But to not have a rim brake + mechanical affordable light group at this level boggles me. I've bought a bunch of bikes that came with 105 over the years, none of those complete bikes cost as much as this group.

Most of those bikes were below 20lb, seems like these bikes with electronic + disc are now going to weigh as much as Tiagra bikes used to, but cost as much as Carbon + Ultegra rim brake bikes did 5 years ago.

A lot of these 105 bikes were/are were my rain and winter rides, etc.. and again.. really hard to stomach a group this expensive that is so likely to have to be totally replaced due to compatibility issues if one major part brakes.

It seems likely I will try Campy for the first time if Campy keeps supporting mechanical + rim brake at a wide range of levels. Particularly for the light road bike I really don't see the benefit of Disc + Electronic for $2k+ extra expense and a big increase in weight. That kind of bike already doesn't go out in the really bad weather where the discs are obviously better, and where I live now I'm in true mountains so rarely it doesn't matter, and I have a long history of being fine on big mountain descents with the rim brakes.

Many excellent points!! I think it’s a symptom of keeping up with Jones. It’s surprising to me how many new bikes are being spec’s w sram rival AXS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[benb]

It all feels like sideways moves I guess that's all.

It feels like we had 20+ years of obvious improvement and then things started going sideways rather than continuing on the same trajectory.

I mean the idea of a $5k carbon road bike coming in at 20lbs in 2022 is definitely wacked when a sub-$2000 105 bike with an aluminum frame in 2000 was less than 20lbs. The 2022 bike will have the advantage on a rainy mountain descent and might have more stiffness in the BB and maybe a slight aero advantage but otherwise forget it... they are basically equal performance and the old bike might outclimb the new one.

So many bikes having compact rings is also so weird, but then so is the # of people in their 20s and 30s riding eBikes instead of regular bikes.

It doesn't really feel theoretical to me either. I have a 5-series Domane with Ultegra and rim brakes from 2016. It's a hair under 17lbs. That exact same price point Domane from 2022 is listed by Trek at over 20lbs for a $5000 bike with 500 series Carbon + eTap Rival + Disc brakes. And the current bike does not get reviewed as well as the old ones did. It's very sideways. In the case of that bike maybe the changes to ISO Speed are what porked it the most but that seems to be very sideways in keeping with the theme since so many people don't think the adjustable ISO speed was an improvement and didn't like the front ISO Speed.

[lorenbike]

Originally Posted by benb

It's too bad this has happened. I'd argue the hydro discs will be much lower maintenance than rim brakes if done right, and that's a big bonus to average riders.. but otherwise they are pretty unnecessary, and the big selling point of discs on road is mostly just cause they marketed the heck out of carbon wheels to a lot of people who probably don't need carbon wheels.

And I don't necessarily agree with a statement that Shimano has already gotten all this stuff right. Every time I have done a test ride it's all way too "meh" to justify spending thousands of extra dollars and carrying extra weight around. If the performance was jaw droppingly improved that would be one thing but it has never seemed to be.

I mean it's gotten odd or spending habits have changed if everyone is totally cool with "my first road bike" being $4000-5000.

.

[prototoast]

Originally Posted by benb

Count me in on being negative about this. I think Shimano has lost the plot.

I think the plot is that Sram has been killing it with OEM Rival AXS on bikes that retail between $3-4000. Shimano wants in on that, and this 105 looks to slot into that market segment.

But to not have a rim brake + mechanical affordable light group at this level boggles me. I've bought a bunch of bikes that came with 105 over the years, none of those complete bikes cost as much as this group.

We don't know what Shimano's future plans for rim brake or mechanical groups are. Clearly there's a part of the OEM market for sub-$2000 bikes and I doubt Shimano is just going to give that up. Maybe they plan to keep producing the 11 speed stuff indefinitely. Maybe they're going to upgrade Tiagra/Sora/Claris. Maybe they're going to come up with a new brand line.

I think a lot of people are jumping from "latest gen 105 will be disc/electronic only" to "Shimano will no longer offer rim/mechanical options." The big bike brands are still offering good road bikes with Shimano rim brakes and mechanical shifting for under $1500.

Most of those bikes were below 20lb, seems like these bikes with electronic + disc are now going to weigh as much as Tiagra bikes used to, but cost as much as Carbon + Ultegra rim brake bikes did 5 years ago.

A lot of these 105 bikes were/are were my rain and winter rides, etc.. and again.. really hard to stomach a group this expensive that is so likely to have to be totally replaced due to compatibility issues if one major part brakes.

As we saw in the steel bikes in racing thread recently, there are a lot of people who don't seem to mind a little extra weight. Some might prefer that in the form of a steel frame, others might prefer that in the form of disc brakes and electronic shifting. I think the specific market niche of a rim brake steel frame with the "top of the line" groupset might be dying, but that's more a branding change than a functional change. A 105 R7000 crankset is the same weight as a Dura Ace 7800 crankset.

[AngryScientist]

Originally Posted by benb

I'd argue the hydro discs will be much lower maintenance than rim brakes if done right, and that's a big bonus to average riders...

"much" lower maintenance??