On Female Frame Builders…

[Dude]

Thank you Skitlets for sharing.

Some people here have valid points, some are oblivious to what's going on - and they seem pretty content demonstrating their own oblivion.

It's a shame that women are underrepresented in the bike industry. We are all worse off for it.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by redir

Are there any frame makers that do this sort of thing as a side business?

I know several that do or have. I mentioned earlier Peter Mooney, who combines running a full service bike shop with building custom frames.

Toby Stanton runs Hot Tubes in Shirley, which does general bicycle repair, in addition to specializing in frame repair and painting. On the Hot Tubes web site, it says that Toby Stanton has build 500 frames since 1991, which is an average of 17 per year.

Tom Stevens has done just about everything in the New England bike racing community, from being a top New England racer himself a promoter of major races, a team manager, and a coach. He makes a living in a number of vocations, including carpentry. And he also builds custom frames under the Spin Arts/Stevens label.

[NHAero]

I have a close friend, cycling buddy, who builds guitars as a hobby. I marvel at the amount of time and skill it takes. Little by little he's acquired some nifty tools too. But he clearly has a day job!

Originally Posted by redir

Are there any frame makers that do this sort of thing as a side business? I can relate to that because I build guitars and do restoration work on guitars. I tried in my 20's to do this full time and found it impossible. So now I have a solid day job but work nights and weekends on my side projects. I make about 4 guitars a year. The few pro's who do this make about 10-12 a year and sell them for no less then $10 grand which is a realistic price point for someone making a living, sending kids off to college, and having a retirement. Mine only go for about $3-5k but that's because it's a luxury for me. I don't need to pay the bills with it.

My guess is that, as tough as it is to get a name as a luthier, it's even harder as a frame builder. Lots of people are willing to take chance on an unknown instrument builder but i cannot think of any frames out there that are build by part timers. Like IOW you really need to have an established name. Is that the case?

My wife is also a potter and while there are lots of very well known potters who make a living at it that craft seems to almost be dominated by hobbyists who do it for fun and for marginal profits.

So it seems like craft work is on a kind of sliding scale. But it seems tough to me to make it as a frame builder.

[redir]

Originally Posted by prototoast

Ben Brewer's survey is probably the best source of data on this: https://handbuildingvalue.files.word...eport-2021.pdf

In his sample, 60 are full time and 45 are part time (4 did not respond).

He also finds that some full-time builders have what most would consider to be less-than-full-time annual output, while a few part-time builders are outperforming the median full-time builder.

About 30% of his respondents say it's not a goal for framebuilding to sustain their livelihood on its own--and that number is about 60% for part time builders. So putting that together, approximately 25% of all framebuilders who do this as a side business with no aspiration for it to be their sole source of income.

Oh neat! Ok cool that's more then I expected.

Originally Posted by NHAero

I have a close friend, cycling buddy, who builds guitars as a hobby. I marvel at the amount of time and skill it takes. Little by little he's acquired some nifty tools too. But he clearly has a day job!

Yes there are few who make it all out. I will probably take it into retirement. It almost has nothing to do with money though it's nice to get some extra cash every year. It's more of a passion. I imagine working with steel and a torch building frames is very much the same.

[NHAero]

I appreciate how many in this thread get it that there are so many factors welcoming or discouraging people into trades or professions.

In'74-75, as a grad student, I was the Teaching Assistant in the MIT Mech Eng Materials and Manufacturing class. Part of that course was a fair bit of time in the machine shop making first a prescribed number of standard items and then a final project. At least back then, the young women in the class had way less experience with tools in general than the young men. They were just as interested, perhaps even more eager, to participate and learn how things were made. But they didn't grow up building stuff and wrenching on stuff the way many ME undergrads like me had done.

One benefit was that they listened to instructions. I never had a female student run the tool carriage on a lathe into the chuck. This was not true of the males.

I have worked in the design and construction industry for over 40 years. Much handwringing occurs because so few young people enter the trades. If job sites are hostile to women and to people of color, and they make up close to 70% of the US population, doesn't that severely constrain the pool for new blood? And if you don't believe that these folks get a load of crap working in construction, just talk to them.

[buddybikes]

Time's changing. When I was young, all my doctors, dentist, etc were men. Now I have 2 men and 5 women. Surgery, orthopedic, I think will be the final frontier in medical space.

Again, when young, never see woman working in shop. Now go in, the only time I don't is a one or 2 man operation.

Women will come in from the design angle, then the torch will be next.

[Doug Fattic]

Originally Posted by redir

Are there any frame makers that do this sort of thing as a side business? I can relate to that because I build guitars and do restoration work on guitars. I tried in my 20's to do this full time and found it impossible. So now I have a solid day job but work nights and weekends on my side projects. I make about 4 guitars a year. The few pro's who do this make about 10-12 a year and sell them for no less then $10 grand which is a realistic price point for someone making a living, sending kids off to college, and having a retirement. Mine only go for about $3-5k but that's because it's a luxury for me. I don't need to pay the bills with it.

My guess is that, as tough as it is to get a name as a luthier, it's even harder as a frame builder. Lots of people are willing to take chance on an unknown instrument builder but i cannot think of any frames out there that are build by part timers. Like IOW you really need to have an established name. Is that the case?

My wife is also a potter and while there are lots of very well known potters who make a living at it that craft seems to almost be dominated by hobbyists who do it for fun and for marginal profits.

So it seems like craft work is on a kind of sliding scale. But it seems tough to me to make it as a frame builder.

I see a lot of similarities between being a luthier and a framebuilder. The primary motive is not seeking to make a fortune but rather the enjoyment of making something tangible that's useful as well as beautiful. In addition makers don't have an annoying boss telling them what to do (although sometimes customers can be annoying . When I was in college I used to like to read the sections in Strad magazine about violin makers.

Hobby and amateur builders have the advantage they can take their sweet time to make a frame as nice as possible while a pro has more limited time or they are losing their profit. Even among pros the time they spend on each frame can vary widely from less than a day making a tig welded frame to a couple of weeks for a finely made lugged frame. I'm not sure the general cycling public understands these differences. What they generally understand is how much does it cost and how soon can it be delivered. If both of those factors are a priority, they actually suppress quality.

Originally Posted by NHAero

I appreciate how many in this thread get it that there are so many factors welcoming or discouraging people into trades or professions.

In'74-75, as a grad student, I was the Teaching Assistant in the MIT Mech Eng Materials and Manufacturing class. Part of that course was a fair bit of time in the machine shop making first a prescribed number of standard items and then a final project. At least back then, the young women in the class had way less experience with tools in general than the young men. They were just as interested, perhaps even more eager, to participate and learn how things were made. But they didn't grow up building stuff and wrenching on stuff the way many ME undergrads like me had done.

One benefit was that they listened to instructions. I never had a female student run the tool carriage on a lathe into the chuck. This was not true of the males.

I have worked in the design and construction industry for over 40 years. Much handwringing occurs because so few young people enter the trades. If job sites are hostile to women and to people of color, and they make up close to 70% of the US population, doesn't that severely constrain the pool for new blood? And if you don't believe that these folks get a load of crap working in construction, just talk to them.

When I started teaching frame building classes in 1976, the overall quality of student abilities to work with their hands was higher back then than it is now. Of course there were/are exceptions. I attribute this to the lack of things to take apart and work on now. If something breaks you just buy a new one. Even shop classes aren't required anymore. The few that I have taught in Ukraine have also had a higher ability to work with their hands. Over there anything that breaks has to be fixed because they probably can't afford a new one right away. And it is just in their culture. Time isn't valuable but things are. Almost every one of my female students have been exceptional in their ability to work with their hands. Although to be fair, many of them already had jewelry or some kind of art training so they weren't typical to the general population.

[skitlets]

Originally Posted by Dude

Thank you Skitlets for sharing.

Some people here have valid points, some are oblivious to what's going on - and they seem pretty content demonstrating their own oblivion.

It's a shame that women are underrepresented in the bike industry. We are all worse off for it.

Thanks Dude and redir the kind words. There are some things people just won't get unless they've lived it -- or keep an open mind when people who have lived it tell their stories. When I first started as an attorney, I'd sometimes be confused for the IT guy. Young female attorneys sometimes would be assumed to be the secretary or paralegal. I tell this story, and apologists/people who are "color/genderblind" will say it's because of youth.

I've never seen a young White male attorney assumed to be any of the above.

After a while, it's easier to just let people keep their heads in the sand because POC go through this kinda crap all day and don't have the energy to educate in their off time. But I love bikes! So consider this a free anecdote worth all of 2 cents.

On the economics of the bike biz, I'm not sure why anyone would stay in it other than for the love. A wheelbuild might take an hour + of skilled labor and only cost $40-$80/wheel. My plumber's minimum is $350 per job, even if it takes 30 minutes.

It took me 3 weekends to set up a new bike build from scratch, 4 including the wheels. In hindsight, I'd prefer to spend the couple hundred on having a pro do the work.

[Doug Fattic]

Some thoughts before this thread goes completely to sleep. Here are some pictures of a frame a gal made in my class recently. It demonstrates how individualistic a frame can become when it is a one-off in both design, reinforcements, colors and graphics. She was less than 5' and wanted to have fatter tires. It is possible she will keep her well paying day job and do some building on the side.

One of the problems with custom steel frames is that many potential customers don't know the difference in feel and comfort really light tubing can make. Production makers have to assume some NFL lineman might buy one so their tubing choices reflects not breaking instead of what works best for an individual. It isn't about the extra weight itself but rather how a frame feels when it is ridden. Also light thin walled tubing is usually heat treated to prevent denting and that requires brazing skill that automated equipment can't do. So it is natural that a steel frame can be associated with heavy characteristics when that isn't necessarily true with some custom frames.

[NHAero]

Sweet!
Did she also custom build the brake routing gizmo?

Originally Posted by Doug Fattic

Some thoughts before this thread goes completely to sleep. Here are some pictures of a frame a gal made in my class recently. It demonstrates how individualistic a frame can become when it is a one-off in both design, reinforcements, colors and graphics. She was less than 5' and wanted to have fatter tires. It is possible she will keep her well paying day job and do some building on the side.

One of the problems with custom steel frames is that many potential customers don't know the difference in feel and comfort really light tubing can make. Production makers have to assume some NFL lineman might buy one so their tubing choices reflects not breaking instead of what works best for an individual. It isn't about the extra weight itself but rather how a frame feels when it is ridden. Also light thin walled tubing is usually heat treated to prevent denting and that requires brazing skill that automated equipment can't do. So it is natural that a steel frame can be associated with heavy characteristics when that isn't necessarily true with some custom frames.

[Doug Fattic]

Originally Posted by NHAero

Sweet!
Did she also custom build the brake routing gizmo?

Yes she did. What you see in the picture was not her finished product but rather a test the concept adaptation. On each side of the pulley wheel was just some rack braze-ons. She thought of some refinements that required some lathe work after the picture was taken. Her concept worked really well so she went ahead making some more custom pieces for it.

One of the pleasures of teaching these classes is that students can come up with really clever ideas. 2 people working together can come up with better refinements than just one person trying to figure it all out themselves

[buddybikes]

That's pretty... Think their is a niche for the less vertical people and market as such