Rivendell saved for now...

[CunegoFan]

Originally Posted by Burnette

Read that blog again, "it doesn't seem like it should be a niche, but in fact it's a micro-niche. That's never been more obvious than it is nowhe thing isfrom steel frames to friction shifters to lugs and saddlebags--should be the universal defaults."

Whenever I read Grant going on about friction shifters I remember that scene in Other People's Money where Danny DeVito lectures the stockholders about a sure path to business failure is an increasing share of a dying market and the last buggy whip maker probably made the best buggy whip ever right before bankruptcy.

But who knows. Maybe Grant's ultimate friction shifter will debut later this year and save the company.

[colker]

Originally Posted by charliedid

I guess I sort of see what you are saying but....if you are "going to the mall" to buy a bike I doubt the $1700.00 Riv is going to do well against the Electra for $1000 less.

I could be wrong.

I've sold a lot of bikes in my life and the average person in this country thinks $
700 for a bike is way too much. I said average consumer not niche cyclist with half a clue. Tough biz on the best of days.

You are right: most of the public think they are right when they save a couple bucks. BUT ... if Riv had enough advertising budget to sell "quality, class, handmade" like watches(Omega) and optics(Leica) companies do.. they would find the people who would turn bikes into status symbol without commiting to an athletic bike fit. I believe Riv´s problem is not design but marketing.

[Lewis Moon]

Originally Posted by CunegoFan

Whenever I read Grant going on about friction shifters I remember that scene in Other People's Money where Danny DeVito lectures the stockholders about a sure path to business failure is an increasing share of a dying market and the last buggy whip maker probably made the best buggy whip ever right before bankruptcy.

But who knows. Maybe Grant's ultimate friction shifter will debut later this year and save the company.

I have no idea why anyone would go back to friction and down tube shifting. It baffles me. I would pick "brifters" as one of the best bicycle improvements of the last 50 years.
What I think is sinking Rivendell, beyond being a niche company that thinks it has a more pure idea than anyone else, is their hipsteresque, hipper than thou contrarianism. I get it that some folks like old school bikes, but there isn't a universal movement to make Paris/Roubaix a tweed ride.
I get it that the vast majority of folks want zero drop between the handlebars and saddle, but the vast majority of those folks don't want to spend over $500 on a bike. Know your market, and specifically, know the size of it. Never let a static concept of hipness be your business model.

[bfd]

Originally Posted by colker

You are right: most of the public think they are right when they save a couple bucks. BUT ... if Riv had enough advertising budget to sell "quality, class, handmade" like watches(Omega) and optics(Leica) companies do.. they would find the people who would turn bikes into status symbol without commiting to an athletic bike fit. I believe Riv´s problem is not design but marketing.

Sorry, but Richard Sachs has cornered this market. After all, who else has got their framesets into publications like “Cigar Aficionados” as the bike to get for those who only want “the best.”

Don’t get me wrong, Richard is one of the top frame builders and has built frames for Rivendell. Further, maybe only Sasha White/Vanilla has a longer wait list that is like 5+ years for their $5500+ framesets.

Good Luck!

[raygunner]

I think it's design and not marketing .

They had cult-like status with their classic line-up and customs.

But they tarnished that with bad designs over the past few years.

Im surprised anyone would buy a Frank Jones (awful name too) or Clem (another bad name).

[unterhausen]

I agree that marketing is their problem. I can think of a lot of companies that are in the same area of cycling as Riv, but Riv is the only one owned by someone that likes to troll other cyclists with his writing. I wrote them off yeas ago. I would be disappointed if they went away, but I'm not supporting that kind of business. I know people like to say GP invented underbiking and gravel biking, but I don't know that they have ever sold the kind of bike I would use for that sort of riding. 35 years ago, I regularly rode my racing bike on gravel, but that doesn't mean it's a good choice.

The bikes from Riv that I have seen recently are really not pleasing to look at. I would say they are derivative and the person that designed them is out of ideas. I ride with someone that has an older Atlantis, that's a nice looking bike. I see now they added a curved tube to that frame to make it heavier and less practical. Keep the curved double top tube monstrosities for your downhill klunker reenactments. I feel like the market for over-priced bikes to ride to the coffee shop is fairly crowded relative to the number of people shopping for a bike like that.

Their web page for their frames and bikes has a picture of a head badge for each model. Can't be bothered.

[colker]

Originally Posted by bfd

Sorry, but Richard Sachs has cornered this market. After all, who else has got their framesets into publications like “Cigar Aficionados” as the bike to get for those who only want “the best.”

Don’t get me wrong, Richard is one of the top frame builders and has built frames for Rivendell. Further, maybe only Sasha White/Vanilla has a longer wait list that is like 5+ years for their $5500+ framesets.

Good Luck!

Sachs is an entirely different operation. He sees himself as building race bikes(he has a racing team) and has a waiting list.
Vanilla is the opposite of what i said of Rivendell which is good old fashioned bikes on the showroom floor to anyone who does not see his herself as a racer. Also, Riv is much cheaper than Sachs or Vanilla.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by raygunner

I think it's design and not marketing .

They had cult-like status with their classic line-up and customs.

But they tarnished that with bad designs over the past few years.

Im surprised anyone would buy a Frank Jones (awful name too) or Clem (another bad name).

According to the blog posts those bikes you don't like are selling. I realize nobody is listening to me, but it seems misguided to keep going back to a false premise to discuss Riv's sales problems. According to the owner it's the drop in parts/accessories going out the door that's the issue, not bikes/frames.

[seanile]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

According to the blog posts those bikes you don't like are selling. I realize nobody is listening to me, but it seems misguided to keep going back to a false premise to discuss Riv's sales problems. According to the owner it's the drop in parts/accessories going out the door that's the issue, not bikes/frames.

it should be considered that his business shouldn't be reliant on parts/accessories. if his bikes reached a broader market than his self-stated microniche, the business wouldn't be struggling because of the lost revenue from inventory that should otherwise be regarded as a peripheral revenue source. as Burnette said a couple times now, "all phases have to click"

[blakcloud]

Rivendell has lost its way and it is unfortunate. Rivendell should be making the bikes in the style that Shinola is doing. Upright bikes, disk brakes, nicely finished not the monstrosities they are making now. Shinola knows how to market their brand. They sell bikes to people who have money,know nothing about bikes but want quality. They have over 30 locations in the US alone and more in Europe.

I am a Rivendell owner but when I wanted a new bike, Rivendell wasn't on my radar anymore. They just won't make what I want so I took my money elsewhere.

[Joe Remi]

Originally Posted by raygunner

I think it's design and not marketing .

They had cult-like status with their classic line-up and customs.

But they tarnished that with bad designs over the past few years.

Im surprised anyone would buy a Frank Jones (awful name too) or Clem (another bad name).

Originally Posted by seanile

it should be considered that his business shouldn't be reliant on parts/accessories. if his bikes reached a broader market than his self-stated microniche, the business wouldn't be struggling because of the lost revenue from inventory that should otherwise be regarded as a peripheral revenue source. as Burnette said a couple times now, "all phases have to click"

Ok I quit. If the argument to a guy saying he's selling plenty of bikes is "sell more bikes", I got nowhere to go with that. I'm going riding.

[colker]

I remember when Rivendell was one of the few shops t carry Brooks saddles. They also carried Nitto bars.. Those are super cool these days and yet how come Riv has a bad design attitude? Grant is ahead of everyone. And that´s because he has integrity in design concept. He is not out there to reinvent Good and durable as not as good but cheap to make in China.
When it comes to their bikes.. i am not attracted to those long stays but i am sure that for millions of people out there those long stay bikes are a better solution than everything else sold as "comfort" bikes. Maybe it´s a better solution for me and i didn´t get it yet.
I am sure Grant can land a design job at any big corporation. It´s the hardcore cyclist who will miss his wisdom for long forgotten parts that make all the sense.

[Skenry]

Originally Posted by Joe Remi

Ok I quit. If the argument to a guy saying he's selling plenty of bikes is "sell more bikes", I got nowhere to go with that. I'm going riding.

There is a difference between selling enough and selling through the bikes that he imports.

He sells most of his bikes yes, but he buys his bikes in lots of maybe 200. The tandem project was what 50 pieces? The baby bike was 35 (I think). Even the more 'standard' models with 100-200 imports a year, that's crazy. Individual bike shops sell more units than he does, his sell through numbers are unsustainable for a business.

We should start a pool to see when they finally announce the closure.
It's sad and I feel bad for the employees, but they all did this to themselves. Collectively. they bought in and let his persona reel them in. I don't even mind the guy, met him twice and he is very nice, wouldn't mind if he lived in my neighborhood (just not right nextdoor).

[raygunner]

No, let's not have a ghoul pool. I'm pulling for them, I'm still a big fan just perplexed with recent moves.

[bob heinatz]

I went to school with Grant (7th - 12th) and he is a great guy. I wish his company the best of luck. Btw I see Riv is attending the 2019 NAHBS I think this is a smart marketing decision on Grant's part. Perhaps this option should have been made a few years earlier. Better late than never. Anyway I am rooting for Riv.