I am really completely out of touch with the latest and the greatest

[Dave]

Originally Posted by CunegoFan

It looks like a huge downgrade to me. So much so that there is no way I can do it. The cassette options have ranges that are so huge the gearing is worse than 11 speed. I tried a 11-27 in 11 speed and the gaps between cogs were terrible. Had to go to a 12-25. How is it that we have 12 speed cassettes and I still cannot get an 18 tooth cog? Every time they add another cog they just stick it on one end of the cassette; how about filling in the gaps for once.

You are confusing the comments about Chorus 12 with 12 speed in general. The cassettes from Record and SR all work the same.

All 12 speed cassettes are straight block from 11-17. The 18-19 is an odd-ball, where the percentage difference is so small, that it's been eliminated from most cassettes from all brands. If your terrain is so flat that you think the 18 has value, then you probably don't need 12 speeds.

Currently, you can get an 18T with an 11-23 or 12-25 11 speed cassette, so what you're saying is you want an 11-25 or 12-27 12 speed cassette.

Most complaints like yours overlook a solution that involves a change in the chain rings, unless you also need a 53/11 top gear, then an 11-25 is the answer. The percentage of change at the 18-19 shift if far smaller than the 12-13 shift. At some point, steeper terrain requires a larger percentage difference between the sprockets, not smaller.

[benb]

I guess I'm out of touch too, the electronic groups and the new odd crank/ring setups have no appeal to me at all. Shifting is mostly a non-issue and I feel no need to add thousands of dollars of cost to a bike just to add more complexity and save that tiny amount of physical effort to push the shift lever.

I do look forward to the day I need a new gravel-y bike and will get hydraulic discs. I have TRP Mini-Vs right now and they're mostly OK but I feel like I have to adjust them pretty frequently as the pads wear and they prevent me from having a fat tire wheelset & a skinny tire wheelset as my particular bike only likes really wide rims.

I can put up with 50/34, barely. Otherwise I am totally down with the idea that a triple would be better in 99% of the cases over all these oddball new setups. Better chainline, don't need heavy pie plate cassettes that wear out fast, don't need clutch derailleurs, etc..

The best feature they could add for me would be extended wear on the chain/cassette/rings. Electronic shifting has no effect on that but all the other "advancements" the last 10-15 years have all come at the cost of more expensive consumable parts that wear out faster. Parts that wear out faster mean more money down the drain and either more weekend afternoons wasted working on my bike or more frequent hassle getting the LBS to do it.

AFAICT 9-speed cluster in the back is still WAY better than 10 speed and 10 speed is a good bit better than 11 & 12 when it comes to wear resistance. I still have 9-speed on my MTB and it's got ridiculous miles on it compared to any 10-speed I've owned. Thicker cogs, thicker rings, thicker chain. Better wear all around. The MTB takes way more abuse too.. ride it through the mud and salt and don't even bother to clean it.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by Dave

Most complaints like yours overlook a solution that involves a change in the chain rings, unless you also need a 53/11 top gear, then an 11-25 is the answer. The percentage of change at the 18-19 shift if far smaller than the 12-13 shift. At some point, steeper terrain requires a larger percentage difference between the sprockets, not smaller.

I agree that It appears that the manufacturers are pushing toward a solution that requires smaller chainrings. But not manufacturers are supplying the cranks for this. The Campagnolo 48/32 crank is a bit of a disappointment: They've come up with completely new chainring BCDs, for a very minimal difference in chainring sizes - 48/32 provides less change in gear ratios than the difference in adjacent rear sprockets. And considering that a "standard" compact crank can take chainrings down to 33 teeth, Campagnolo's 32 tooth chainring is hardly any difference at all.

And I disagree that steeper terrain requires larger percentage difference between chainring sizes. The change in cadence and leg force is the same with a given percent difference in gear size, regardless of how steep the terrain is. My legs prefer an 8-10% difference between gears across the entire cassette, and I'm frustrated by the tendency for cassettes to be designed with small percent jumps between the smaller sprockets, and percent large jumps between larger sprockets.

[jmoore]

Originally Posted by 72gmc

$1100 store credit at the LBS?

1) replace clothing and/or shoes
2) or upgrade/refresh 2-3 bike drivetrains (shopping sensibly and off season)
3) or buy a hardtail mtb (also off season) and have a blast not thinking about road prices

^this

Or $1100 would build some really nice wheels and have money left for tires.

[Spaghetti Legs]

Originally Posted by bigbill

This year I forayed into the Shimano world. All my road bikes are campy 10 or 11. I bought a Ultegra 8000 mechanical group from the classifieds here and put it on a really nice Ti bike, that I bought here. The 8000 stuff works really well but I've had a few hand issues throughout my life including a compound fracture of my left hand, several broken fingers, and the webbing between my thumb and forefinger sliced open, all in my 30's. Now I'm 54 and it's starting to bug me when I ride. Today is the first day I seriously thought about Di2. I have an easier time with campy and the thumb paddle.

A friend of mine in his 60's with arthritis in his hands tells me that electronic shifting is a game changer for him.

Weisan - I'm with you. I'm content riding the older stuff. I have only one bike with the first gen Campy 11 speed. I remember lusting over the latest and greatest 15 years ago (Colnago C50, Campy Record Carbon 10, Carbon wheels yowza!) but the new stuff now really doesn't light me up. Show me a hand made steel bike with chrome lugs though ...

[SuperColnago]

Arthritis might be a reason, yes for E! Until then....
FWIW, just changed my cables back to Campag cables on my Merckx with Record 10sp gruppo WOW, crisp butter shifts, great feedback, lovely would never need better!
Then went for a ride on my MOOTS RSL with 2018 Record 11sp I bought new, and prefer 10sp shifting for feedback (I’m old)...
This a great thread, the etap stuff is overwhelming, I would like to try it, but its overwhelming....
This is a great thread....did I already say that? > old...

Originally Posted by Spaghetti Legs

A friend of mine in his 60's with arthritis in his hands tells me that electronic shifting is a game changer for him.

Weisan - I'm with you. I'm content riding the older stuff. I have only one bike with the first gen Campy 11 speed. I remember lusting over the latest and greatest 15 years ago (Colnago C50, Campy Record Carbon 10, Carbon wheels yowza!) but the new stuff now really doesn't light me up. Show me a hand made steel bike with chrome lugs though ...

[Dave]

I suppose that different people have different needs when it comes to cog spacing, but if the current 11-29 cassette has too large of jumps between the larger cogs, tell us what would be better.

If the 29 isn't low enough, then the contention is that a 46/30 or similar crank is needed. That's not enough top gear for me.

I've been riding the 11-34 for several weeks now. I have no complaints about the jumps between the cogs. My current routes have some grades of at least 12%. Slopes are not the same for very long, so my cadence may vary by 10 rpm, with no change in the gear I'm using. If the slope is that steep, I'm using the 34 sprocket until it lets up and I can use the 29.

[benb]

I think I have a 50/34 with a 12-32 on my Space Horse IIRC. It might be a 11-34 though.

I bought that for towing a trailer. That's a bike that weighs 27lbs and I was towing something like 80lbs with it.

That cassette block is super annoying to me in normal road riding. I take off from a stop light and I'm skipping 3 cogs at a time and then riding the 50 ring 90% of the time even when I'm out of shape.

On a go fast road bike intended for paved roads I can't see anything that low or lower making any sense. A 14-15lb carbon super bike with a 50/34 + 11-34 is nuts to me. That combo lets you go 6mph without having to get out of the saddle, that's a Mt. Washington hillclimb setup.

[Dekonick]

Originally Posted by Alaska Mike

Most of my bikes are equipped with SRAM 10 speed. I have had newer groupsets on bikes, but the "advantages" weren't enough to cause me to upgrade, especially with the investment I currently have in wheels and components. I stopped stockpiling about a year ago, but I currently have enough parts to last me for quite a while, so I don't worry about it.

The one bike that I currently have 11 speed on has SRAM eTap. Since it's a travel bike, that has been a game changer for me. I can swap derailleurs or shifters at will for different configurations with minimal issues other than a little pairing.

Does it really make the actual riding experience better than my "old" 10 speed drivetrains? Not really. Once extra gear across the same spread is nice, but not necessary. Shifting is easier, but a well-tuned drivetrain was never really a chore to actuate for me. To be honest, getting it dialed in took me much longer than on any mechanical groupset (to include ones with Yaw derailleurs), but I expect that might change with experience.

Eventually I'll move to 11 speed, 12 speed, or phase-plasma shifting. Or just buy an ebike. Who knows? As long as I have fun, it really doesn't matter how the gears change.

I keep looking at the Bianchi ebike... It looks nice, it is only pedal assist - and you don't have to use it or minimally... and I think it would be nice to exert the same output and go 30 mph solo and get in 90 miles in just a few hours. A chance to go farther and see more while still getting a workout. Totally different way to think about cycling for certain.

[Dave]

Originally Posted by benb

I think I have a 50/34 with a 12-32 on my Space Horse IIRC. It might be a 11-34 though.

I bought that for towing a trailer. That's a bike that weighs 27lbs and I was towing something like 80lbs with it.

That cassette block is super annoying to me in normal road riding. I take off from a stop light and I'm skipping 3 cogs at a time and then riding the 50 ring 90% of the time even when I'm out of shape.

On a go fast road bike intended for paved roads I can't see anything that low or lower making any sense. A 14-15lb carbon super bike with a 50/34 + 11-34 is nuts to me. That combo lets you go 6mph without having to get out of the saddle, that's a Mt. Washington hillclimb setup.

A 12-32 11 speed should be a straight block up to the 17. No reason to be skipping 3 cogs. If you're in the big ring need a lower gear, the 19 is not a big jump.

Who would even think that a 15 lb super bike should have such gearing? It's perfectly appropriate for old riders, beginners and old guys who ride steeply sloped routes, like me.

When you take off from a stop sign, you must be in the wrong gear to start with. It has the same gear ratios available as any other.

[benb]

Originally Posted by Dave

When you take off from a stop sign, you must be in the wrong gear to start with. It has the same gear ratios available as any other.

The point is the gears are so low I spin out the gear I start in very quickly. If I just upshift one gear I'm still spun out in that gear.

If I start in anything like the first 3 gears I will get clipped in and within 1-2 seconds I'll upshift 3 gears. I'll pedal a few more times, then upshift 2-3 more cogs.

I could probably stop & start in the big ring.. but I'd be cross chained starting from a stop.

Again this is a weird example, those low gears are useful offroad or carrying a load.

There are all kinds of these super bike type things which don't offer any stock configurations with a 53/39 and we've got SRAM pushing rings even smaller than 50/34 and they're not marketing it for old guys and people towing trailers and touring and such. Nobody needs a $2k electronic shifting groupset for those kinds of uses.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by benb

That cassette block is super annoying to me in normal road riding. I take off from a stop light and I'm skipping 3 cogs at a time and then riding the 50 ring 90% of the time even when I'm out of shape.

I'm having trouble reconcile these two comments. If you have to jump multiple sprockets when changing speed, that implies closely spaced gear ratios; but if you can stay in the same chainring over a wide range of terrain, that implies widely spaced gear ratios.

I prefer fairly close spacing between gear ratios, so it is not uncommon that I shift 2, or sometimes 3, sprockets at a time (and often for several times) when rapidly accelerating from a stop. But that's not much of an issue with Campagnolo Ultra shifters, which allow multiple sprocket upshifts (2, 3, 4 or 5 sprockets at a time) with a single push of a lever.

[Mark McM]

Originally Posted by benb

The point is the gears are so low I spin out the gear I start in very quickly. If I just upshift one gear I'm still spun out in that gear.

If I start in anything like the first 3 gears I will get clipped in and within 1-2 seconds I'll upshift 3 gears. I'll pedal a few more times, then upshift 2-3 more cogs.

I could probably stop & start in the big ring.. but I'd be cross chained starting from a stop.

Then why do you down shift to your lowest gear when coming to a stop when you're are not carrying a load?

When using a wide range cassette on flat terrain, I'll often not bother changing to the small chainring when coming to a stop. It hasn't been a problem.

[Dekonick]

Originally Posted by SuperColnago

Arthritis might be a reason, yes for E! Until then....
FWIW, just changed my cables back to Campag cables on my Merckx with Record 10sp gruppo WOW, crisp butter shifts, great feedback, lovely would never need better!
Then went for a ride on my MOOTS RSL with 2018 Record 11sp I bought new, and prefer 10sp shifting for feedback (I’m old)...
This a great thread, the etap stuff is overwhelming, I would like to try it, but its overwhelming....
This is a great thread....did I already say that? > old...

I still use Campy 10. I don't plan on changing for mechanical shifting.

[joemull]

the sram AXS has a 46/33 - 10/33 that to me seems the perfect balance of road gearing and gravel gearing.